Question about Bernie's items

[gujerseylover]

Take a look at this auction Bernie has for another Peyton Manning.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2001-PEYTON-MANN...QQcmdZViewItem

It looks like he was able to resolve the problem with the short sleeves, but now there is a problem with the long sleeves.

Bernies sleeve numbers appear to be approx 3/4" from the Reebok logo. The real jersey is approx 2 1/2" from the logo. Clearly not the same:

December 10th:

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/15...CAE924E043CE4B

December 2nd:

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/50...156965EDF68B63

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/50...EF869620B6AB01

Nov 4th:
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/54...0593F0A86BD011

Just a few examples.

It gets better, the colts did not wear a ribbed cotton neckline in 2001 as
far as I know. I believe they stopped wearing them earlier. The position of
the NFL logo, cut of the neckline and the ribbed material is incorrect. The
jersey should have a dazzle cloth elastic neckline. Ask if anyone else has
a 2001 colts jersey they can check.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/50...95C0DB141DFB92

This is the 3rd Manning jersey from 2001. One blue one with short sleeves, one white one with short sleeves, and this one. He says he gets them all from the team, I don't know what team he is talking about. Maybe it is Team Reebok. He also had a bad Marvin Harrrison, all of these were already confirmed on this board.

[Bernie J. Gernay]

Wow, we have more experts on this forum than we know what to do with. I apologize if you are unable photo-match every item we have up for auction. Sorry but I do not have the time nor the resources to go through game footage of every minute played in a particular season of each player and post images with the specific item. When we get a jersey from the team, and it shows game use it is sold as such. We do not take out a measuring tape to examine the exact dimensions between the sleeve numbers and the manufacturer logo or the measurements of the distance from the NFL logo to the top of the numbers.

You state "the colts did not wear a ribbed cotton neckline in 2001 as
far as I know. I believe they stopped wearing them earlier." Not much confidence by you in those statements with "as far as I know" and "I believe". The problem is, you don't know, because you are 100% incorrect.

We do not buy jerseys from any other source except the player or equipment manager. I'd hate to list our Curtis Martin gamer unwashed from 2002 with a 99 neck tag and the LH (Leon Hess) memorial patch removed from the shoulder. I bet I'd be in big trouble with the experts here if that happened.

[apujols04]

Wow, we have more experts on this forum than we know what to do with. I apologize if you are unable photo-match every item we have up for auction. Sorry but I do not have the time nor the resources to go through game footage of every minute played in a particular season of each player and post images with the specific item. When we get a jersey from the team, and it shows game use it is sold as such. We do not take out a measuring tape to examine the exact dimensions between the sleeve numbers and the manufacturer logo or the measurements of the distance from the NFL logo to the top of the numbers.

You state "the colts did not wear a ribbed cotton neckline in 2001 as
far as I know. I believe they stopped wearing them earlier." Not much confidence by you in those statements with "as far as I know" and "I believe". The problem is, you don't know, because you are 100% incorrect.

We do not buy jerseys from any other source except the player or equipment manager. I'd hate to list our Curtis Martin gamer unwashed from 2002 with a 99 neck tag and the LH (Leon Hess) memorial patch removed from the shoulder. I bet I'd be in big trouble with the experts here if that happened.

This forum.......wow. They are rough Bernie. Very good post. Some people on this site just get mean and type without thinking about how the words look and may be wrong. I believe you aquired these jerseys from a good source. I would love to own that Manning jersey.

[kingjammy24]

"Wow, we have more experts on this forum than we know what to do with."

Bernie, the last thing in the world I would expect from you is sarcasm and facetiousness regarding the members of this forum because if it hadn't been for the "experts" on this forum, then some poor sap would've ended up buying your short-sleeved '02 Manning, that you ended up removing, for over a thousand dollars. You should thank your lucky stars for the 'experts' on this forum who did their homework on the jersey when you yourself, 'expert football authenticator' and 'president of PSI' admitted you "just didn't get into the research". (Chris and Eric, I realize he works for Global and Global is helping you guys to sell memberships, but I'm not stating anything false here, and personally I'm tired of 'experts' explaining their mistakes by saying 'I didn't do the due diligence').

"Sorry but I do not have the time nor the resources to go through game footage of every minute played in a particular season of each player.."

Overexaggerating doesn't help your case. Nobody ever suggested you "go through game footage of every minute of each player". Peyton Manning does not change jerseys every minute and there are only 16 games in an NFL season. It took me 15 minutes last time and I wasn't even the one selling a $2000 jersey.

"When we get a jersey from the team, and it shows game use it is sold as such. We do not take out a measuring tape to examine the exact dimensions between the sleeve numbers and the manufacturer logo or the measurements of the distance from the NFL logo to the top of the numbers."

Bernie, since the Colts seem to be selling you somewhat 'odd' jerseys, perhaps it would behoove you and your clients to 'take out the measuring tape' lest another '02 Manning incident occur and the 'experts' on this forum aren't around to catch it for you. By the way, did you ever contact the Colts to inquire why the Manning they sent you was so atypical?

"We do not buy jerseys from any other source except the player or equipment manager."

So out of curiosity, where did your "late 80's" Montana's come from?
Joe himself? or Bronco Hinek? I'm genuinely curious why you don't offer any sort of documentation from the Colts with your jerseys? Wouldn't it be a great thing to offer your buyers?

"I'd hate to list our Curtis Martin gamer unwashed from 2002 with a 99 neck tag and the LH (Leon Hess) memorial patch removed from the shoulder. I bet I'd be in big trouble with the experts here if that happened."

Is it necessary to be facetious Bernie? Try to remember, with each posting you represent yourself, your company, Global Authenticated, and GameUsedUniverse (seeing as how you're one of the 'experts' listed).
Choosing to respond to posts with sarcasm and without offering a single ounce of your 'expertise' and knowledge doesn't make you look good. You could've easily replied by sharing your knowledge of Manning/Colts jerseys and explained the collars and sleeves in a way that would've helped educate everyone on the forum. I'm left wondering why you didn't. Instead all you did was post a message full of nothing but sarcasm.

Rudy.

[trsent]

Rudy and I often butt heads, but I'll stand behind him on this one. I thought Bernie's post basically stated that the questioning of his item was out of line because he doesn't have to research an item when obtained right from a team or equipment manager.

I know I bought a jersey from a former teammate of the Hall of Fame player years ago, only to find years and years later that the jersey was not game used. I was upset, but I did more homework and found the jersey was no good. It happens, I know the great Bobby Cox once sent me 10 "game used jersey" only to find two were game used and eight were store model jerseys.

It happens in the real world.

[hof89]

I look at that Peyton Manning jersey and *WHAT STANDS OUT AT ME IS THE CUT*....look how wide and boxy the jersey is...*IT LOOKS WRONG TO ME, BUT CAN OTHERS ATTEST TO PEYTON'S JERSEY CUT DURING THIS SEASON?*

(this post has been re-written to adhere to the rules of the forum while still expressing the same opinions/information)

[Eric]

This forum.......wow. They are rough Bernie. Very good post. Some people on this site just get mean and type without thinking about how the words look and may be wrong. I believe you aquired these jerseys from a good source. I would love to own that Manning jersey.

If I am reading it correctly, people here are not questioning whether or not these Colts jerseys came from a good source. It could be from the player himself and still not be correct so homework must be done by the seller and the buyer.

Here's an excerpt from a New York Daily News column written by Michael O'Keeffe

"Players' memories aren't always golden, says Spencer. Al Gionfriddo, a former Brooklyn Dodger who died last year at 81, consigned the glove he used for his jaw-dropping catch of a DiMaggio blast in the 1947 World Series to a MastroNet auction in 2001 without realizing he had already shipped the glove to Cooperstown in 1974. MastroNet, which had told Gionfriddo the glove would fetch as much as $100,000, ended up selling the mitt for $12,000 - to Gionfriddo's wife."

[kingjammy24]

Wow Eric, not quite the response I expected from you. But I think you're spot on.
Unless someone personally goes into the locker room and removes the jersey from a player's back after a game, due diligence is always required.
Team sold or player sold is not a justification for failing to do your homework nor is it a guarantee of authenticity.
If the Jays sent me a 1990 Russell jersey, for example, the last thing I would think is that it's legit. My first thoughts would be that it was made for a photo shoot, promo, charity giveaway and I'd call them to up to discuss why it isn't a Wilson. To blindly take a jersey from a team or player and say "well it shows use and it's from the team so it must be good" is naive at best and dangerous at worst. To then go a step further and issue an LOA for it based solely on those 2 aspects is irresponsible. Fonts, styles, patches, sizes, rosters, etcetcetc all need to be checked regardless of provenance.
Your quote re: Gionfriddo was amusing. Not only do some teams, managers, players simply not know what they're really dealing with, but some intentionally mislead for the sake of profit. What about those jerseys directly from Manny Ramirez? Or the jerseys and bats signed by Arod as "game used"? Players will order spares to give away to friends or to sell privately, teams will order spares for photo shoots and charities. These spares find their way into hobby. They're hardly gameworn (or even game-issued) even if they are directly from the team/player. The source of an item is only 1 aspect in determining it's authenticity and it's naive to think it's the only aspect you need to consider.

Rudy.

[hof89]

I look at that Peyton Manning jersey and *WHAT STANDS OUT AT ME IS THE CUT*....look how wide and boxy the jersey is...*IT LOOKS WRONG TO ME, BUT CAN OTHERS ATTEST TO PEYTON'S JERSEY CUT DURING THIS SEASON?*

(this post has been re-written to adhere to the rules of the forum while still expressing the same opinions/information)

Wow, I got edited???? Whatever happened to the 1st ammendment?

[EndzoneSports]

Wow Eric, not quite the response I expected from you. But I think you're spot on.
Unless someone personally goes into the locker room and removes the jersey from a player's back after a game, due diligence is always required.
Team sold or player sold is not a justification for failing to do your homework nor is it a guarantee of authenticity.
If the Jays sent me a 1990 Russell jersey, for example, the last thing I would think is that it's legit. My first thoughts would be that it was made for a photo shoot, promo, charity giveaway and I'd call them to up to discuss why it isn't a Wilson. To blindly take a jersey from a team or player and say "well it shows use and it's from the team so it must be good" is naive at best and dangerous at worst. To then go a step further and issue an LOA for it based solely on those 2 aspects is irresponsible. Fonts, styles, patches, sizes, rosters, etcetcetc all need to be checked regardless of provenance.
Your quote re: Gionfriddo was amusing. Not only do some teams, managers, players simply not know what they're really dealing with, but some intentionally mislead for the sake of profit. What about those jerseys directly from Manny Ramirez? Or the jerseys and bats signed by Arod as "game used"? Players will order spares to give away to friends or to sell privately, teams will order spares for photo shoots and charities. These spares find their way into hobby. They're hardly gameworn (or even game-issued) even if they are directly from the team/player. The source of an item is only 1 aspect in determining it's authenticity and it's naive to think it's the only aspect you need to consider.

Rudy.

All-

A hypothetical situation... Each of several different people have exactly (for argument's sake) the same 49ers Joe Montana GU jersey that you want to buy. Each has the same story regarding provenance with no documented proof (that the shirt came directly from the collection of 49ers Equipment Manager Bronco Hinek who received it as a gift from Montana following the NFC Championship game of 198?) and no 3rd party authentication. At the same asking price who will you buy from?

• Me - a faceless person from the Internet that you only know by a sign-in name
• Your local neighborhood card dealer who just happened upon the deal of a lifetime
• The folks at Grey Flannel, dealers with a national reputation
• An intern from the 49ers equipment department
• Bronco Hinek himself
• Joe Montana himself

Truth be told, if you wanted the jersey you'd probably be willing to buy it from any of them... with a sliding scale of due diligence required.

From someone unknown, the prudent buyer would do a great deal of homework to verify and make him/herself as comfortable as possible with the purchase. As you go through the list, most would feel that less work would be required as the implicit level of trust increases. As some point, some, if not all, would reach a comfort level where they would just be willing to take one of these folks at their word (a rare occasion these days, but for you younger folks, trust me, business used to be actually conducted based on things like trust, honor, and a person's word).

While I make no pretenses to know anything about this particular item, and certainly not enough to call someone's reputation into question over it, here's another thought to ponder: Is it not possible that Bernie acquired said item in good faith from a source, whom he implicitly trusted and simply offered the item as presented? Hold on for just a minunte as I can hear those fingers warming up on the keyboard for a reply as you think, "But he's a professional dealer, he should have know... Should have found out... Could have..." While we expect the people that we buy from to be honest, trustworthy, and forthright in their dealings, in the same breath we tell these dealers that they'd better not place the same faith in their sources becuase they're lying, cheating scoundrels and when you buy from them, you sure better spend at least 10 hours on line comparing evey conceivable Getty/Corbis photo out there to the item to ensure that no inconsistencies exist, lest ye be drawn and quartered at Ye Ol GameUsedForum [OK, pardon the rant, I've drifted a bit to the right here]... As I said, I don't know the specifics about the situation, only pointing out that there are alternate scanarios to the one which unfairly paints Bernie as a moron at best and a crook at worst.

Point being is that we're awfully quick at the draw with the incendiary comments (even the tilte "Bernie is at is again!" implies confrontation from the get-go) and then we feign surprise when the attacked person lashes out defensively. Instead of asking non-accusatory questions and presenting alternative evidence in a profession, respectful manner, many on this board prefer to use the drive-by approach--throw the Molotov cocktail while passing at 55 then watch from a safe distance as the wind fans the flames.

This forum has such wonderful potential for education through the exchange of information, but unless we can learn to communicate in a more professional and respecteful manner--being mindful of how our "innocent comments and questions" could effect others--it is likely that this forum will continue digress to the point where there will be nothing remaining but poor Eric, refereeing over a couple bickering children.