Card Companies and "Game Used" Cards

[suave1477]

Is the autograph on this Kurt Warner swatch below the stitching?

http://webzoom.freewebs.com/jdworley...t%20Warner.jpg

Attachment 23930

Eric great catch!!!

That is a blaintant as it gets that this was not a game used piece.

It disgusts me what these card companies put in these cards and some poor guy probably paid a premium on that one.

[xpress34]

Anyone see the Honus Wagner Sterling 1/1 bat barrel card. I believe with that signature on it, it's from a replica mini bat. A few of those on ebay and sig looks same as those. Anyone see a Wagner bat with this style of signature on it?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290290071438

Well the guy who pulled it made his payday - $11,100.00 was the winning bid!!!!!

- Chris

[xpress34]

Wow, I didn't reealize that people faked patches on cards. It's a conspiracy!

OH YEAH.... check out Sports Card Forum (SCF) sometime (sportscardforum.com) - there are always articles about bad cards out there for sale...

As far as PATCH cards, there are some basic easy to follow guidelines:

1) If the card says Game Used Jersey, NOT Patch and it's a multi colored Patch - it's probably a fake

2) If it's a PATCH card that is either NOT #'d or is #'d over 25 - it's probably a fake, and for the most part, PATCH cards are #'d to 10 or less.

Just a quick FYI!!!

- Chris

[coxfan]

Some general comments on this whole topic from a fellow who's been g-u collecting about 4 years. First, I agree that card companies take an enormous risk when they buy on the secondary market. They've claimed in the past that they do so only when the item is autenticated by a reputable company, but I've developed no trust in any authenticator as a result of what I've read over the past 4 years. Since the card companies now say they buy only from MLBPA-approved sources, it seems the MLBPA is also risking its reputation by approving any questionable sources. I also agree that vintage items ( eg a Ruth bat) should not be cut up.

However, I disagree with those of you who attack the whole idea of memorabilia cards. Many of us don't have either space or budgetary resources to accrue lots of whole bats or jerseys like some of you have. I don't have to hide a $10 bat-piece card from my wife, but if I'd bought the whole bat for $500 I'd have more explaining to do! Plus the card takes up a lot less space than the bat would, especially if I bought a number of them over time. And surely there are enough cracked bats over the course of a 2430-game season to satisfy us all.

Just for the sake of those of us who lack the space and finances to collect lots of whole items, let's allow memorabilia cards some tolerance so we can enhance our own hobby participation in an affordable way. I might add that I never pay more than $15, ( usually no more than $10) for a card, as I don't trust the authenticity of anything enough to risk bigger bucks. And I trust the law of averages; if I buy 30 g-u cards, surely a fair number of them will be authentic even if a few are not. I find the idea that card companies and the MLBPA would gamble their reputations on a tidal flood of fakes to be too far out for credibility.

[suave1477]

Some general comments on this whole topic from a fellow who's been g-u collecting about 4 years. First, I agree that card companies take an enormous risk when they buy on the secondary market. They've claimed in the past that they do so only when the item is autenticated by a reputable company, but I've developed no trust in any authenticator as a result of what I've read over the past 4 years. Since the card companies now say they buy only from MLBPA-approved sources, it seems the MLBPA is also risking its reputation by approving any questionable sources. I also agree that vintage items ( eg a Ruth bat) should not be cut up.

However, I disagree with those of you who attack the whole idea of memorabilia cards. Many of us don't have either space or budgetary resources to accrue lots of whole bats or jerseys like some of you have. I don't have to hide a $10 bat-piece card from my wife, but if I'd bought the whole bat for $500 I'd have more explaining to do! Plus the card takes up a lot less space than the bat would, especially if I bought a number of them over time. And surely there are enough cracked bats over the course of a 2430-game season to satisfy us all.

Just for the sake of those of us who lack the space and finances to collect lots of whole items, let's allow memorabilia cards some tolerance so we can enhance our own hobby participation in an affordable way. I might add that I never pay more than $15, ( usually no more than $10) for a card, as I don't trust the authenticity of anything enough to risk bigger bucks. And I trust the law of averages; if I buy 30 g-u cards, surely a fair number of them will be authentic even if a few are not. I find the idea that card companies and the MLBPA would gamble their reputations on a tidal flood of fakes to be too far out for credibility.

Coxfan I don't thing in a broad spectrum anyone has a problem with you directly for collecting those cards.

But do all the math behind it. Is it really a more affordable way to get a piece of the item???
Let's say you pay your max $10 to $15 for a card. Which only includes a tiny sliver of the bat. Which percentage wise of the actual bat is less then a penny value (less then 1 cent). So your paying $10 or $15 for something worth less then 1 cent.

If you hold off on 5 or 10 cards that's $50 to a $100 in your pocket that you can buy a whole bat. Which is ten time more valuable then a tiny sliver.

You said also for the guys who can't afford the big ticket items its a more affordable way.
This is just my opinion and nothing against you.
But if I can;t afford something then I don't buy it.

I don't go to a BMW dealership and say can I just buy the hood of the car because I can;t afford the rest. NO.
I save my money till I can get the real thing.

But the problem I think mos to f us feel is.
1) By having these cards with the pieces your realistically ruining memorabilia by cutting it or chopping it up
2) As much as we would like to believe the card companines are just holding out for the broken & cracked bats to come along to chop up. Is highly doubtable.
I am sure whatever comes across there path gets axed.
3) Towards the collectors of these items as long as the card companies have you, they will continue to ruin good Game Used memorabilia.
4) Even worse some of the memorabilia is not reliable and to these collectors are getting taken, for something they think that they are getting something because they think it is more affordable.

Think of it like this also (Math quiz) - This is just a hypothetical example!!

You spend $10 a card for 5 cards - $50
$50 can get you an actual bat or Jersey

The card company that cut up that bat or Jersey. is cutting it up into small pieces.
Which your paying $10 on and for the thousands of pieces they are getting out of that item.
They are making $1,000 off an item that they now ruined that they orginally paid $50 for and your paying $10 for a piece.

[coxfan]

Thanks to Suave1477 for his comments, which I read carefully and appreciate. However, I don't agree with the analogy that one doesn't buy the hood of car because one can't afford the whole car, because it doesn't apply to artifacts in general. My daughter bought me a piece of the Berlin wall from the Gerald Ford Presidential Library. I value it, even though I couldn't afford the whole wall. And I don't begrudge the Ford Library for making some money off of it.

Similarly, fossilized fragments of prehistoric animals are sold to folks who couldn't afford the whole animal. ( And yes, there are lots of authenicity issues there too!)

My point is that selling parts of artifacts is well-established in other fields. And I suspect there is close to one cracked bat, on average, for each of the 2430 MLB games yearly; not to mention thousands of other g-u items. That still seems like plenty for the relatively small world of collectors in any form.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Think of it like this also (Math quiz) - This is just a hypothetical example!!

You spend $10 a card for 5 cards - $50
$50 can get you an actual bat or Jersey

The card company that cut up that bat or Jersey. is cutting it up into small pieces.
Which your paying $10 on and for the thousands of pieces they are getting out of that item.
They are making $1,000 off an item that they now ruined that they orginally paid $50 for and your paying $10 for a piece.

OK, I'm playing lotto tonight...I agree with Suave.
Cards are cool. Every member has collected them at one time or another. I think you are only kidding yourself if you collect "game used" cards and call yourself a "game used" collector. You can get some really nice gamers of common players for cheap. They're great conversation pieces, and you can spend hours researching the items. A "game used" card is a 1 inch x 1inch piece of fabric that has already been authenticated and researched by some idiot at a card company. I own 100s of jerseys and live in a cramped apartment with an adult woman and an adult cat. Duffle bags+closet=both-teams-played-hard archives. By the way, I'm broke as a joke.

[suave1477]

Thanks to Suave1477 for his comments, which I read carefully and appreciate. However, I don't agree with the analogy that one doesn't buy the hood of car because one can't afford the whole car, because it doesn't apply to artifacts in general. My daughter bought me a piece of the Berlin wall from the Gerald Ford Presidential Library. I value it, even though I couldn't afford the whole wall. And I don't begrudge the Ford Library for making some money off of it.

Similarly, fossilized fragments of prehistoric animals are sold to folks who couldn't afford the whole animal. ( And yes, there are lots of authenicity issues there too!)

My point is that selling parts of artifacts is well-established in other fields. And I suspect there is close to one cracked bat, on average, for each of the 2430 MLB games yearly; not to mention thousands of other g-u items. That still seems like plenty for the relatively small world of collectors in any form.

Your comparing my analogy of a bmw to the berlin wall?? Not quite the same!!

Especially since the Berlin Walls siginificance was about standing up and being knocked down. Also I don;t think owning the whole berlin wall would realistically be within the financial means of anyones reach - except for Warren Buffet.
But then again I am not sure even he would like to try to ressurect the wall in his livingroom.
So basically your comparing apple to oranges.

These 2 are your statements:
Coxfan "My point is that selling parts of artifacts is well-established in other fields"

So basically what your saying is because this may be the norm for other hobbies then it should be ok with this hobby?? We should follow in other hobbies footsteps??

Not to mention hobbies such as bone collecting would naturally come in pieces. As in this hobby the Jersey didn't start of as being cut up before the player wore it!!

Coxfan "And I suspect there is close to one cracked bat, on average, for each of the 2430 MLB games yearly;"

Again your assuming, that 1 cracked bat for every game is the exact same one the card company is using. Trust me on this one, they use more then just the cracked bats.


Coxfan I am not saying your right or wrong, you collect your hobby as you see fit. I am just trying to understand your thoughts on it. That is all!!

[coxfan]

I'm sure we all agree that getting whole items is preferable, and I have about 15 entire items ( including a base and two bats) to go with my 30 or so cards. But collecting whole items has practical limits, so I'm glad there's room for adding to one's collection in other ways. But I'm curious above Suave's statements regarding how the card companies acquire bats. I'm limiting my question only to current players, as I usually avoid retired players on the assumption that authenticity is more questionable for earlier periods, since the older items are more likely to have gone through more private hands. So how do you, Suave1477, believe that companies are acquiring current players' bats, when they all should have an ample supply of cracked ones available? Thanks in advance.

[suave1477]

Coxfan well I would up at this point since there are current players the card companies can rely on going through current mlb teams/players. But unfortunately that has already been proving wrong. I am not sure if it is on this thread or another but it has even been proven that card companies actually placed retail model pieces of bats in cards. So I think from that it is safe to assume. That do not exclusively go through team/player.

Again you assumiong they are collecting cracked bats. Do you really think the card companies care what bats they cut up?
Did they care about cutting up a Babe Ruth Jersey?

Just as stated earlier in this thread these items come put of my collection your collection and everyones here at some point. They come from auction houses and personal peoples collections as well as players and teams. Maybe charities too.