2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

the elway is still up on VA. bidding is up to $1104. so i guess that's their answer?

both auction houses have lampson authenticate the same jersey and yet one decides to pull it and the other doesn't. it's a little confusing.

rudy.

Hello Everyone,

I'm trying to get caught up on things after having minor surgery last week and I have to say I find this thread fascinating. First of all, to Patrick and everyone who participated on this thread, I really have to say I think you guys have done a tremendous job explaining this situation.

I also have one question. Is it possible that Elway wore more than one jersey in the September 1994 game? Absent that possibility, I'm really trying to figure out how in the world this jersey is still being auctioned after a review of the information that has been presented here. If Elway did wear only one jersey in that game, why has this jersey not been pulled?

Has there not been enough evidence presented here to show a mistake was likely made when authenticating the jersey? Or, is there not at least enough information to show there are significant questions that need to be answered before a collector spends thousands of dollars on this jersey (the bidding is currently at about $1,700 with the premium with about a week left in the auction)?

Thanks in advance for any additional information that I might be missing.

Sincerely,
Chris

[allstarsplus]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Originally Posted by CollectGU
To be fair to the auction houses, we are looking at and complaining about 5- 10 jerseys, often the other 300 don't seem to have problems, and in fact there are some really nice items often offered. No excuse for the 5 -10 wrong, but if auction houses like AMI at least pull them when notified with a problem it means that things are changing for the better in the hobby.

Regards,
Dave

Dave - Don't seem to have problems???? Just because 5-10 are being scrutinized doesn't mean the other 300 are "assumed" good. Sure, there are some nice items as every auction house needs to highlight their auctions with "nice items" or else we wouldn't open the auction catalog.

After college, I became a licensed CPA. When doing audits, you learn statistical sampling because you have to manage time and can't thouroughly go through every piece of inventory. For example, if 300 was the size of the inventory, you may randomly choose "say" 20% or 60 pieces to audit. Then you would tear through those 60 and figure out how many of those were good or bad. If 10 of the 60 were bad, then you would assume 50 of the entire 300 would be bad.

If we went through the other 300 in a one by one fashion, how many perfectly tagged light use would we find? The light use is sometimes a flip of the coin as the consignor is generally the one who knows if it was really game used or a game-issued that was rolled around in the back yard and washed. They are harder to scrutinize when they are MLB or NBA jerseys. Easier to scrutinize when they are NFL jerseys.

If we went through the other 300 and the auction houses disclosed who the seller was, how many problems would we then find? Many eBay sellers have left to the anonymous cyberspace of the auction houses you speak of. Now they can hide behind their anonymity and feed the auction houses with their junk and hope and pray they receive a LOA and big bids.

We often times also mistake heavy bidding and big prices for credibility too. How many of these auction houses are allowing fake bids and shills that often give an illusion of safety and hence attract legitimate bids.

Note to Chris ---Hope you are feeling better!

Andrew

[mr.miracle]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

"Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him."

actually, i'd like to see how that conversation went.

steve - "lou, there's a bit of a problem with this elway. it was only worn for 1 game and yet you've authenticated four of these. in fact, you authenticated one for AMI and then turned around and authenticated one for us in the same month!"

lou - "trust me victor, you've got THE ONE"

steve - "it's not victor. it's steve. from vintage authentics?"

lou - "vintage what? oh yeah, what's what i meant. steve. you've got it buddy"

steve - "well ok. but lou, the football hall of fame says they have the one"

lou - "football hall of fame?! what the hell do they know? do they have 8000 photos?"

steve - "well....probably. they.."

lou - "have they authenticated for the smithsonian? i'm LOU LAMPSON! do you hear me jensen? LAMPSON!!! the football hall of fame has nothing on me! say it with me steve, LAMPSON!!"

steve - "LAMPSON!!"

lou - "ok good. now don't bother me with these elways any more. pass me some of those 1989 bo jackson home jerseys. geezus i've done so many of these. who's this for again? vintage flannel?".

rudy.

Rudy:

You are hilarious, I cannot stop laughing.

[mr.miracle]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Dave - Don't seem to have problems???? Just because 5-10 are being scrutinized doesn't mean the other 300 are "assumed" good. Sure, there are some nice items as every auction house needs to highlight their auctions with "nice items" or else we wouldn't open the auction catalog.

After college, I became a licensed CPA. When doing audits, you learn statistical sampling because you have to manage time and can't thouroughly go through every piece of inventory. For example, if 300 was the size of the inventory, you may randomly choose "say" 20% or 60 pieces to audit. Then you would tear through those 60 and figure out how many of those were good or bad. If 10 of the 60 were bad, then you would assume 50 of the entire 300 would be bad.

If we went through the other 300 in a one by one fashion, how many perfectly tagged light use would we find? The light use is sometimes a flip of the coin as the consignor is generally the one who knows if it was really game used or a game-issued that was rolled around in the back yard and washed. They are harder to scrutinize when they are MLB or NBA jerseys. Easier to scrutinize when they are NFL jerseys.

If we went through the other 300 and the auction houses disclosed who the seller was, how many problems would we then find? Many eBay sellers have left to the anonymous cyberspace of the auction houses you speak of. Now they can hide behind their anonymity and feed the auction houses with their junk and hope and pray they receive a LOA and big bids.

We often times also mistake heavy bidding and big prices for credibility too. How many of these auction houses are allowing fake bids and shills that often give an illusion of safety and hence attract legitimate bids.

Note to Chris ---Hope you are feeling better!

Andrew

Andrew:

You are right on with your assessment. Because there is nobody that is truly policing this industry besides this forum and perhaps several others, that take an interest in the items being sold through the auction houses, there is a very real possibility that many, many additional items never get pulled that are questionable at best.

Lets be honest, even with all the members of this forum that collect many different items, not even a fraction of the many many items in the various auctions throughout the year get overly scrutinized and are left to the word of the authenticator. Andrew is correct, if just a small sample is found to have inherent flaws, then if we looked at these auctions as a whole and critiqued each item in them, how many more would we honestly find that were very questionable to outright fraudulent???

I think it is safe to say that almost every member of this forum would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole. It is almost to the point where you would rather not have any type of authentication on the item and do your own due diligence than trust or purchase anything that Lou has authenticated.

[EndzoneSports]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

I think it is safe to say that almost every member of this forum would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole. It is almost to the point where you would rather not have any type of authentication on the item and do your own due diligence than trust or purchase anything that Lou has authenticated.

Brett:

There are indeed flaws in the authentication process, one of the most obvious being that it is not an exact science, but rather one of educated opinions. With this, errors will no doubt be made. We can debate until the fat lady sings about who makes more errors and/or whose mistakes are the most egregious, but the fact that they have made (and will continue to make) mistakes is a given.

Being part of an entity whose mission centers on research, education and historical preservation, I am a staunch advocate of collectors doing their own homework and coming to an educated guess on their own. However, having both utilized and provided authentication services, I am fully aware of the pros and cons on both sides of this issue. I also realize that there is a significant part of our collecting community that is reliant upon, and thus creates a demand for the 3rd party authentication services. This includes those in the business of selling (directly and via consignment), who want to at least give the appearance of staying at arm's length re: claims of authenticity as well as those purchasers, who, either through inexperience or lack of available resources, are reliant upon the opinions of those in the business of 3rd-party authentication.

As long as the demand for these services continues, those brave enough to offer these services will continue to thrive... And due to the nature of the process, mistakes will continue to be made. Comprised of both niche experts and passionate hobbyists, this forum provides an exceptional quality check for the authentication process. When errors occur, I believe that as a responsible community we have an obligation to bring this information to the attention of both the community at large as well as to the sellers; hopefully this will always be done in a professional and courteous manner. In kind, it is hoped that this information will be assessed and an appropriate response (via words or actions) given. In a great number of instances, feedback from this forum as resulted in items being pulled from auctions/sales, thus benefiting the hobby as a whole.

Regards,

[allstarsplus]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Brett:

There are indeed flaws in the authentication process, one of the most obvious being that it is not an exact science, but rather one of educated opinions. With this, errors will no doubt be made. We can debate until the fat lady sings about who makes more errors and/or whose mistakes are the most egregious, but the fact that they have made (and will continue to make) mistakes is a given.

Errors will occur and we have all made them, but when there is a pattern of these errors---is it really an error or perhaps something worse? That is certainly debatable. When there is easily obtainable photos or stats that would contradict a finding, is it an error made when the conclusion just isn't possible or plausible?

Here is Merriam Webster Dictionary definition of an error:

Main Entry: er·ror
Pronunciation: 'er-&r, 'e-r&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English errour, from Anglo-French, from Latin error, from errare
An act that through ignorance, deficiency, or accident departs from or fails to achieve what should be done

Originally Posted by Mr. Miracle
I think it is safe to say that almost every member of this forum would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole. It is almost to the point where you would rather not have any type of authentication on the item and do your own due diligence than trust or purchase anything that Lou has authenticated.

I agree with Brett, if it has a Lou Lampson LOA/COA, I'm not buying and agree I would rather have no cert with the item.

Originally Posted by Lund6771
VA, AMI and others that use Lampson must be in this business for the short term...any business that has a good plan would cut off ties with a supplier/vendor immediately if they consistantly screwed up...they must have many upset customers and upset customers are not repeat customers...I know that I'm not and I'm sure there is many more of you out there that feel the same...

Agreed, and reps from those Auction Houses certainly read the Forum. I don't get it.

Andrew

[mr.miracle]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Brett:

There are indeed flaws in the authentication process, one of the most obvious being that it is not an exact science, but rather one of educated opinions. With this, errors will no doubt be made. We can debate until the fat lady sings about who makes more errors and/or whose mistakes are the most egregious, but the fact that they have made (and will continue to make) mistakes is a given.

Being part of an entity whose mission centers on research, education and historical preservation, I am a staunch advocate of collectors doing their own homework and coming to an educated guess on their own. However, having both utilized and provided authentication services, I am fully aware of the pros and cons on both sides of this issue. I also realize that there is a significant part of our collecting community that is reliant upon, and thus creates a demand for the 3rd party authentication services. This includes those in the business of selling (directly and via consignment), who want to at least give the appearance of staying at arm's length re: claims of authenticity as well as those purchasers, who, either through inexperience or lack of available resources, are reliant upon the opinions of those in the business of 3rd-party authentication.

As long as the demand for these services continues, those brave enough to offer these services will continue to thrive... And due to the nature of the process, mistakes will continue to be made. Comprised of both niche experts and passionate hobbyists, this forum provides an exceptional quality check for the authentication process. When errors occur, I believe that as a responsible community we have an obligation to bring this information to the attention of both the community at large as well as to the sellers; hopefully this will always be done in a professional and courteous manner. In kind, it is hoped that this information will be assessed and an appropriate response (via words or actions) given. In a great number of instances, feedback from this forum as resulted in items being pulled from auctions/sales, thus benefiting the hobby as a whole.

Regards,

Patrick:

There is little doubt that as long as there are professional authenticators mistakes will be made by all. We can all reference discussed on this very forum from every authenticator out there that has been questionable at best over the years. However, that being said, the fact that time after time, over and over, item after item after item that is authenticated by Lou Lampson has been proven to be not only questionable but downright erroneous in every sense of the word.

If Lampson has over 8000 photos in his personal collection, perhaps he should add a few more by photographing items he has authenticated. That way when he references them against new items he could at least prevent the current situation with the Elway jersey from happening so that he would not look like a complete buffoon on a repeated basis.

At some point, the reputation of these auction houses that continue to use Lou Lampson's services is going to suffer and perhaps in some cases they already have. As the reputation of this very forum continues to grow and its membership ranks swell, the continuous flow of worthless LOA's that Lampson writes will continue to come up in debate on this forum for all to see. Real or not, authentic or not, as this continues nobody will purchase anything authenticated by Lampson at least if they spend any time reading the weekly comedy routine on this forum that is the Lou Lampson authentication process. Actually, it is more like a greek tragedy as hard working individuals are trusting that this man has done his utmost to ensure that the items he is authenticating are what they are portrayed to be. People are dumping tens of thousands of dollars per item in some cases into items that are complete garbage and as it has been pointed out on this forum before, Lampson is laughing all the way to the bank.

It was pointed out on this forum before that even when AMI or Vintage has contacted Lampson about very, very questionable items and presented to him the issues raised, he has more or less said trust me, it is real. That is some level of reassurance and certainly goes a long way toward clarifying issues surrounding the items.

Nobody is perfect and nobody expects anybody to be perfect however we do expect Mr. Lampson to do his job and do it right. As it stands now, it looks like he is more concerned with quantity over quality and rubber stamping as many items with his seal of approval as he can.

Does anybody know how I can go into the memorabilia authentication industry??? Outside of weathermen I am not sure what other career allows one to make so many mistakes and still retain a job.

[EndzoneSports]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not defending the track record of Mr. Lampson. I have been just as critical of mistakes made by Lou, Bernie Gernay, Grey Flannel, etc.--in fact our position is one of being critical of the hobby's reliance upon 3rd-party authentication as a whole.

Our point was simply stating the deficiencies of the process as a whole. Though imperfect, this is a situation where one (in this case the GUU collecting community) must be careful for what they ask for, lest their request be answered. In the early to mid-90s, when our specific genre of collecting really took off, the rapid increase in demand led to an escalation of prices. With the increase in the amount of money involved came the temptation for the less scrupulous to engage in fraud and deceit. In order to combat those who would perpetrate less than forthright dealings, the concept of 3rd-party authentication arose. Unless, as a collecting community, we can find a way to remove the possibility for fraud/deceit in the items that we covet, the need/demand for 3rd-party authentication will remain.

In an arena of such uncertainty, newer, less experienced collectors--who lack the experience/resources to formulate their own educated opinions--must continue to rely upon the opinions of others as they make their purchasing decisions. Likewise, even amongst more experienced veteran collectors, there remains a segment that seems to sleep better at night, knowing that someone else's opinion agrees with their own before laying out what can be the cash equivalent of a quality used car for "someone else’s dirty shirt" (as my wife puts it).

In the face of continued uncertainty, I offer collectors a bit of advice... No item, unless personally removed from the back of the athlete following a sporting event, can be attributed as such with absolute certainty. As we all know, only a miniscule percentage of game worn/used items make it directly into the hands of collectors in this fashion. As such, some amount of faith in the process is required--faith in the nature of the displayed physical characteristics, faith in the provenance, faith in the opinion of an authenticator, faith in the reputation of the seller. At face value, each of these elements should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism, and reconciled to a point of a "comfort level" for each individual purchaser. Where some whom might rely more heavily upon authentication would state that they "would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole", others would likely just approach such an item as if it had not been authenticated at all, preferring to pass their own judgment on the items' other merits.

How individual collectors/purchasers come to such reconciliation is really a personal matter. I was fortunate enough to have come into this hobby at a time when the items at hand were not the high-dollar commodity that they’ve become today. At the time when I was still an inexperienced newcomer to the hobby, a relative degree of certainty regarding an item’s authenticity was inherent simply by its’ purchase from one of the two or three legitimate dealers who dealt in such obscure collectibles. Fast forward to today, where I feel that my level of knowledge has elevated to a point of being able to almost completely disregard a seller’s unverifiable claims of provenance and/or an authenticator’s opinion, replacing them with my own opinion.

In deference to those collectors caught in between (neither a newcomer nor an expert be), I would again contend that the collective knowledge of the members of this forum is one of the best available resources when uncertainty arises. The fact is that Lou Lampson/MEARS/Grey Flannel/Bernie Gernay/ad infinitum will continue to make mistakes. While some will make fewer than others and some will be better about how those mistakes are rectified, these will still occur. Accepting this, I stand by my assertion that we owe it to the collecting community to share our knowledge and insight.

As a side-bar… In addition to our duty to share information that may be helpful to other collectors, comes the need to share that information responsibly. In my nearly two decades in this hobby’s pursuit, one absolute that I have established is that nearly nothing is sacred. Fonts vary, tagging inconsistencies exist, color variations occur. In offering advice to others, we need to be cautious in the application of absolutes—“always” and “never” are indeed true rarities in this hobby and should be seldom used. About the only absolute in this hobby is that nothing is absolute. Caution should be exercised when pointing out such inconsistencies. Not that such inconsistencies and shouldn't be pointed out as they often discredit an item, however, at times, the existence of these does not necessarily make an item bad/wrong. Often, irresponsible inferences to such "bad/wrong" items can be damaging to otherwise legitimate items.

Regards,

[G1X]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Patrick's last post is perhaps the best thing ever written in this forum. These words of wisdom should be required reading of everyone involved in this hobby.

Clip it out and keep a copy in your wallet or pin it to your bulletin board. You will never get any better advice about this hobby than what Patrick has just given.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

[hiramman]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

I for one will not buy or bid on an item if it is backed up with a Lou Lampson authentication letter. If he has authenticated it, then I just ignore the auction. If enough people do that, the auction houses will have to respond.

[lund6771]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

anyone have any explanation as to why this thing is not pulled yet?????....is Lampson's opinion worth more than a guy who works at the HOF?????...come on!!!!

[EndzoneSports]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

anyone have any explanation as to why this thing is not pulled yet?????....is Lampson's opinion worth more than a guy who works at the HOF?????...come on!!!!

I sent an email to Steve Jensen of Vinatge Auctions and he responded on 4/2 that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him." Having heard nothing further in a week, I sent a follow-up e-mail to Steve early on the morning of the 9th inquiring as to what came of the conversation; as of this time, I've not yet received a response.

Regards,

[lund6771]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Patrick...any word from VA on this shirt yet?

[EndzoneSports]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Patrick...any word from VA on this shirt yet?

Rob:

I've not heard anything back, but I would imagine that they must have a great deal of confidence in this being the one legitimate sample since the auction is still open. Even if convinced that their authenticator was right on this occasion, what does that say for his track record regarding the 2 (or 3) that were previously authenticated for AMI?

It's somewhat of a sad state when the auction houses lie in hiding, shielded from culpability behind the "opinion" of their paid authenticators, even in the face of clear evidence that the same authenticator has pulled the wool over the colletive eyes of the hobby on multiple occasions.

Regards,

[CollectGU]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Given the information, AMI pulled theirs immediately and I am told will no longer offer that style at auction again....

Dave