Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

as it currently stands, all pics show a 2-bar mask. the loa/description mentions a 2-bar mask. (apparently lou realized the mask was wrong and replaced it after he "authenticated" it?) there's no mention whatsoever of a 3-bar mask anywhere. it's likely that the bidders are basing their decisions on the pics and the description; ie: a 2-bar mask. boy is the winner going to be surprised when they get that helmet in the mail and see a 3-bar mask.

rudy.

[staindsox]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

This is a serious fraud. I am not a lawyer, so if someone is, please chime in, but begally speaking, I don't think anyone could even do anything about it unless they were the one to have purchased it. Any volunteers?

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

New photos are up showing a 3 bar facemask.

I wrote them back and asked if Mr. Lampson switched the facemask out with the permission of the consignor? Or perhaps is her the consignor?

I also asked if it was switched with a game used facemask of Winslow's?

Mastro also said that there will be "a modification note" on the website.

I just got an email saying Doug Allen has left me a voicemail, so I'll see what that's about.

This doesn't explain why the authenticator would switch out a facemask on something because it was the wrong facemask and why the auction house had photographed the wrong one.
Eric

[sammy]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Why the surprise here?

Mastro's has gone South every since Bill sold the company.

They started using Lampson to save money and sell very questionable items, and jacked their rape to 20 percent.

I don't even bother looking at their junk anymore.

I'll stay with Robert Edwards Auctions, as they are one of the very few left in this business that haven't sold their soul and reputation for the mighty greenback.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Justin listened to the voicemail.

Doug Allen says they got the Winslow from the Duke Hott collection. They determined the facemask was incorrect and he and Mastro, based on the fact that the facemask was incorrect for what Winslow wore during this time period, asked Lampson to go find a vintage-style facemask similar to what Winslow would have worn.

Allen said that request was not documented properly and the wrong photos and description were put on the site.

He says the proper one will be put on, noting that it's a vintage-style facemask and not the game used original.

He admits there were miscommunications and was quite apologetic.

Eric

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

None of this by the way explains why everyone was fine with the helmet and facemask when it was offered to me a year ago for $5500!!!!, and it wasn't until I determined there was a problem, that there was a problem.

Now of course everyone is saying they determined the facemask was bad. I did the research on it when everyone was talking about the great provenance and authenticator and saw that something wasn't right...

Eric

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

I have been told by Doug Allen that Lou doesn't now, nor has he ever had a financial interest in the winslow helmet.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

- initially, mastro didn't know that the facemask was changed. they even said the 2-bar and 3-bar mask were the same. the change hadn't even occurred to them. once made aware, they had to "investigate" what happened. this seems to indicate that they weren't the ones who initiated or requested the change nor were they even aware that it had occurred.

- it was then either the consigner or lou who took the initiative and neither of them told mastro.

- mastro said it was lou who changed the facemask.

- the facemask change occurred after the helmet arrived in mastro's possession, after mastro took the pics and after lou wrote the loa.

- they said lou has no financial interest in the helmet.

it would be insane to think lou could've changed the facemask without letting the consigner know beforehand. (it's apparent he didn't let mastro know until after he did it).

all of this begs the question of why? if lou realized, after the fact, that the facemask was incorrect why would he even care to change it? he's already authenticated it, he's been paid for the authentication and yet wants to change the facemask for some reason? why? there's a complete lack of motive. who paid for/obtained the new facemask?

it's one of the most bizarre things i've heard in this hobby. sorry but i don't believe lou was sitting around, having completed his work and been paid, and suddenly, without telling the auction house, decided to see if he could dig up and apply a 3-bar facemask to a helmet that didn't belong to him and that was already in mid-auction.
the only story that seems plausible to me is that the consigner realized the issue after they had submitted it and asked lou to see if he could change the facemask. given that the pics and description were already online for a 2-bar mask i don't really see the point.

very, very strange. lou has no motive for changing the mask yet was purportedly the one to do it. mastro had no clue he did it. so you've gone a rogue authenticator changing items without informing the auction house and the best scenario is a consigner with a weak motive? maybe the consigner is a mastro employee? after all, if lou's not the consigner, can't change it without the consigner's consent, and the helmet was in mastro's possession the whole time....

something tells me i'd never make it on Law & Order.

rudy.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

- initially, mastro didn't know that the facemask was changed. they even said the 2-bar and 3-bar mask were the same. the change hadn't even occurred to them. once made aware, they had to "investigate" what happened. this seems to indicate that they weren't the ones who initiated or requested the change nor were they even aware that it had occurred.

- it was then either the consigner or lou who took the initiative and neither of them told mastro.

rudy.

I think Doug Allen knew, but the people I was talking to didn't know. That's why they were as suprised as I was that it didn't match what was described...

If I had to guess, I'd say Doug Allen is the consignor and asked Lou to switch out the facemask. I don't know why it didn't occur to him that it then wouldn't match what''s in the auction catalog.

Also, I don't understand how they could list it as the 2 bar helmet and leave it there getting bids saying it's geniune, and then switch the facemask.

An uninformed person pointed the finger at lampson. He works for the auction house. Apparently if the auction house asks him to replace the facemask, he does it. Allen said he asked Lampson to make the change.

The new facemask will be mentioned on the Mostro listing tomorrow.

Also, here's why I think Allen is the consignor.

I was originally offered this helmet by an auction house who traded Mastro a HOF game used jersey for it. They offered it to me as being a gem from the Duke Hott collection signed off by Lou. Two of the biggest names in the hobby. They wanted $5500 for it. I looked at the helmet and didn't like the facemask on that era helmet, so I bounced it back to the auction house, who eventually could not match the helmet style and facemask (1985-87) in a photo, so they bounced it back to Mastro for credit. Apparently, Mastro has had the helmet for a year. If Mastro was making trades, doesn't it seem plausible that it's their piece? I don't know, maybe I'm making one too many assumptions.

What I don't get is, once it got bounced from the auction house back to Mastro, how could Lou write a letter on it if he knew the 2 bar facemask was bad?

I'll just email him. Oh wait....

[CollectGU]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Please clarify Eric. It was Mastro who asked Lou to find them a new facemask?

Thanks,
Dave

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Please clarify Eric. It was Mastro who asked Lou to find them a new facemask?

Thanks,
Dave

Yes, look at the last post on page 2 of this thread where I describe Doug Allen's voicemail. He explains that he asked Lou to replace the facemask since they all determined it was bad (despite the fact that the auction listing says it's good and comes with a lou lampson loa)

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

"If I had to guess, I'd say Doug Allen is the consignor and asked Lou to switch out the facemask."

eric, here's what mastro says:

"Mastro Auctions is a consignment auction house. Many auctions are run by dealers offering material they own. And in addition to offering an infinitely inferior service, these auctions expose consignors to numerous unreconcilable conflicts of interest."

if mastro feels that running items owned by the auction house owners is an "unreconcilable conflict of interest" then it's difficult to think they'd engage in such activities. given his education and vocation as a cpa, i'd wager doug's taken a class or two in ethics and as such knows that these sorts of activities are a no-no.

the thing is, lou's very hard to get a hold of. his contact info isn't given to the average outside consigner. if the consigner wasn't related to mastro, then you'd think it'd be difficult for them to contact lou to tell him to change the facemask. if they did want to contact lou, then they'd likely have to do it by passing a message to him via mastro in which case mastro would be aware of the request. they were not. however, mastro apparently doesn't believe in allowing employees to consign items. lou, of course, wouldn't alter someone's item without being asked. so when you put all 3 together, it's all very bizarre. if mastro is truly a "pure consignment house", then the consigner would be an outsider. as an outsider, how did he contact lou without going through mastro? strange stuff.

rudy.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Again, the people I was talking to at Mastro didn't know that Doug Allen had asked Lou to switch out the facemask.

Doug said it wasn't properly noted, which was a miscommunication and caused the wrong photos and description to be listed on the site.

[yankees159]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Mr. Allen Can you please let me know why this happened? I've spent thousands of dollars with your company and would like to find out why something like this could happen? This is alarming and makes me wonder why I should continue to participate in your auctions.

Thank you.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

i'm genuinely interested in whether or not the helmet belongs to a mastro employee. their own policy seems to prohibit consignments from their employees. of course, in the same breath they also state "all qualified bidders in good standing are eligible to bid on any lot in the auction, including employees and executives of Mastro Auctions, Inc.". to me, allowing doug allen and brian marren to compete against private collectors on mastro auctions seems to be a huge "unreconcilable conflict of interest".

ever wonder why the fine print in almost every contest states "employees of XX company and/or their relatives are prohibited from entering..". it's because you can't have the people running the contest also competing to win the prizes. it's a bewildering decision to let the people who have access to the bid records and auction software compete with people who don't. why do you think lottery employees are prohibited from playing the lottery? practically every lottery has fine print that reads "All employees and members of their immediate family, regardless of where they live, are prohibited-by-law from playing..". it's same thing in an auction.
you're supposed to running an impartial auction and yet you let your own employees (the same ones who administer the auction software, who can see everyone elses bids and their maximums, and who record all of the bids and results) compete against people who don't have access to that info. how completely fair! it's like watching a hurdle race between a 2-legged runner and 1-legged runner. plus, once you allow your employees to bid, then that opens the whole "shill bidding" can of worms.

anyway, eric, you stated that allen said the current photos and current loa/description were mistakenly used. if it was a mistake are they saying that they've got another lampson loa with a 3-bar description that was written prior to the auction starting?

i wonder how they're going to deal with the current bidders. retracting bids is not allowed on their auctions. should be interesting.

"What I don't get is, once it got bounced from the auction house back to Mastro, how could Lou write a letter on it if he knew the 2 bar facemask was bad?"

lou wrote the original letter on it when it was offered to you. you mentioned the facemask issue. it now has another, more recent lampson letter on it that fails to mention the facemask issue. either lampson forgot or he didn't care. consider the fact that this is the same man who, knowing that the 94 elway throwback was only used in 1 game, proceeded to write multiple loas on multiple versions of it. 2 of them within several weeks time of each other! how often do you see a 94 elway throwback? you'd think you'd remember if it was only weeks apart. sort of shatters the "he forgot" explanation and lends more weight to the "he didn't care" one.

rudy.