Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

[reed1216]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Just for the record, I sold Mastronet an uncut 1948 Leaf Boxing set last year, which was sold in one of their more recent auctions (the most recent one if I'm not mistaken). I would be happy to provide the exact listing number, but I haven't figured out how to access their archives, if they have one.

I was strongly encouraged to consign the item, but I needed the funds to do some home repairs, prior to selling my last home and didn't want to wait until the slow season to put my home on the market after the auction concluded. That would have to be an obvious instance where the auction house sold one of their own pieces because it was theirs when I received payment from them.

With that said, they were more than professional with me during the transaction. They covered all the shipping fees for me to send it to them. Moreover, they paid a very fair price for it. If my memory serves me, I rec'd about $7,500 for it and it sold for just over $10K in their auction. They also were careful to inspect the piece, prior to purchasing it. It was framed and they informed me that they would have to remove it from the frame to inspect the condition of the sheet. If I'm not mistaken, it was listed and sold unframed, but all of that was done well before it was ever listed in their catalog or online.

To be honest, I wasn't at all aware that their was a problem with an auction house selling its own memorabilia. While that was the first time I sold an item that was later auctioned to Mastro, I have sold several things to Grey Flannel, which were subsequently auctioned off. I have consigned items to them as well, but initially I sold them. I got a lot wiser after watching a 1977 game worn Reggie Jackson helmet, with a LOA from Michael Grosbardt (team photographer) go for around $13K, after selling it to them for a small fraction of that.

[staindsox]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

I had a terrible experience with Mastro. I sold a Thompson Honus Wagner print through them. They did a terrible job listing the item and ended up allowing bids to be retracted. I could have eBayed the item for more money. Their incompetence cost me a lot of money. I was furious, but what can I do? I will never deal with them again. After my experience, I thought they came off as dishonest and bumbling.

Chris

[jonincleve]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

does this mean the auction house can give lou lampson a game issued bat and he can go out in the field and do some hitting? or take a game issued jersey and do a head first slide into some dirt? the possibilities are endless. what is the difference from changing the appearance of a helmet vs a bat or jersey? where is the line drawn?

[reed1216]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

I can't wait to one day see a Lampson LOA that states, "The jersey displays solid authenticator wear from multiple inspections. Final grade GU- 9.5"

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Couple of exchanges with Doug Allen this morning. He has been very quick to get back to me, so i thank him for that.

In the first email he described that his firm (Mastro) acquired the winslow helmet as part of the Duke Hott collection.

When it became apparent that the facemask was incorrect, Doug requested the replacement be found. He said this was a lengthy search, as it took almost 2 years.

He said the switch was entered into their system with "notes to 're-shoot' the photo and 'document the replacement mask.'" and those requests were not followed through. They are making attempts to fix those things now.

I responded with this question:

Doug

You said your firm (Mastro) acquired the helmet as part of the Duke Hott collection. So that means you have a financial stake in this helmet, correct?

Thanks
Eric

His response was that he has been "transparent as to what has transpired as it relates to the helmet" and that I have all of the information. I should use that information to decide whether or not to bid.

That's the update.
Eric

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

"To be honest, I wasn't at all aware that their was a problem with an auction house selling its own memorabilia."

for the same reason an authenticator isn't supposed to authenticate items they own, an auction house shouldn't offer items they own. (people point to john taube but i don't believe taube actually grades the bats he sells. at least that's what he told me when i asked him to grade a bat i bought from him). judging by their behavior you'd think the auction houses weren't aware it's a problem either. my guess is they know it is and simply don't care. ethics don't come cheap. must be a sweet deal to be a seller who can dump his items into his own auction house and also conveniently employ the authenticator looking at your item. surprising that lou positively authenticated his bosses' item. couldn't see that one coming. i wonder if the president of mastro has the ability to see the the bid maximums on his item?

"what is the difference from changing the appearance of a helmet vs a bat or jersey? where is the line drawn?"

maybe the line isn't drawn at all. after all, mastro publically states they "aren't dealers" and feel that dealers "putting items they own into their own auctions is a unreconcilable conflict of interest" yet they do it anyway. by the president no less! it's one thing to have a low level employee secretly subverting company policies but if the guy at the top is publically doing it, then you can just imagine what a stellar example he's setting for the rest of the employees. additionally, mastro allows its employees to bid on items. what a wonderful situation doug has set up - mastro owned items, in a mastro auction, being bid on by mastro employees. thumbs up doug! what a level playing field that is.
mastro could've kept it all fair by simply choosing to consign the helmet to AMI, GFC, Lelands, etc as a private consigner. apparently, they thought it better to keep it in-house thereby making their own policies nothing but meaningless drivel.

eric, something still doesn't make sense:

"When it became apparent that the facemask was incorrect, Doug requested the replacement be found. He said this was a lengthy search, as it took almost 2 years. He said the switch was entered into their system with "notes to 're-shoot' the photo and 'document the replacement mask.'" and those requests were not followed through. They are making attempts to fix those things now."

doug allen realized the facemask was wrong almost 2 yrs ago but lampson wrote an loa on it for doug within the last 2 months and his loa made no mention of the facemask issue. if doug knew the facemask was bad almost 2 years ago, then why does lampson's loa fail to mention this?
it has nothing to do with the replacement mask and new photos. lou's loa/description isn't a year old. it was maybe 2 months old. doug KNEW the facemask issue existed 2 months ago when he gave the helmet to lou. whether he found a replacement or not, the description should've stated the facemask issue. doug knew about it when he consigned it and yet the info didn't show up.

"His response was that he has been "transparent as to what has transpired as it relates to the helmet" and that I have all of the information. I should use that information to decide whether or not to bid."

how very forthcoming. whenever encountering questionable items or practices, i've always loved the "don't like it? don't bid" explanation. right up there with "don't bother me" and "i'm an expert".

rudy.

[lon lewis]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

For Eric I have been following this thread with some fascination, just out of curiosity,I would like to know what year, if you know, this helmet is supposed to be from. It seems to me that if it's from a season prior to 1985 the mask should have the older "thicker" bars rather than the RS (reverse strap)"thinner" bars version. If the helmet is supposed to be from 1985 forward then it should have the RS version of the facemask. If that's the case why did it take 2 years to find something that's a stock item?

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

For Eric I have been following this thread with some fascination, just out of curiosity,I would like to know what year, if you know, this helmet is supposed to be from. It seems to me that if it's from a season prior to 1985 the mask should have the older "thicker" bars rather than the RS (reverse strap)"thinner" bars version. If the helmet is supposed to be from 1985 forward then it should have the RS version of the facemask. If that's the case why did it take 2 years to find something that's a stock item?

Lon-

Nice to hear from you. Interested in what you think about this thread.

Kellen retired in 87, so I dated it between '85 and '87 because of the block numbers on the back of the helmet (the Chargers switched from yellow numbers to block numbers on the back of the helmet in '85) Winslow went to the bulky 3 bar facemask in '84.
Eric

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Here is the addendum on the Winslow listing

Please Note: The images accompanying this description have been revised. When Mastro Auctions initially acquired the item, the facemask was inconsistent with the type actually used by Kellen Winslow. It has been replaced by the appropriate style of facemask, thus, the facemask accompanying the helmet is not original.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

I went back and re-read the emails from the time. Correction- I was offered the helmet (when it had the two bar mask) 6-20-05. I arranged to get my refund 8-8-05.
Eric

[rose14]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Mastros Auctions have turned into one of the most unethical auction houses in the business. The continue to use a very questionable authenticator even after several of their auction items have been exposed and they continue any way to leave them in their auction. Now the president of the auction house is basically admitting to being the owner and "fixing" the helmet that he has in his own auction where he or his employees can manipulate the bidding. Isn't it great to employ an authenticator that can write a COA for you when he had previously looked at the item a year or so earlier and knew the facemask was wrong?

It would be great if Sports Collectors Digest would write a story to expose Mastros, Doug Allen along with Lou Lampson on this helmet issue but I'm sure they don't have the stones to do it since Mastros is one of their advertisers. There are so many stories that they could do on the likes of this but they are too afraid they might ruffle some feathers rather than report it for the good of the hobby.

[lon lewis]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Eric
could you email me @ shadowsdad@worldnet.att.net I'd like to discuss chargers helmets with you.

[EndzoneSports]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

His response was that he has been "transparent as to what has transpired as it relates to the helmet" and that I have all of the information. I should use that information to decide whether or not to bid.

Eric

Having read through this thread with some interest, here's one more opinion to throw gas on the fire...

With some amount of suspicion, I can accept that internal miscommunication within the Mastro organization is what led to the incorrect photos/description originally being posted. Though some elements of the story/time-line seem to be somewhat inconsistent, I would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. It should be noted that I have a neutral opinion of Mastro as I have neither consigned with them nor bid on any of their items (for no reason other than they've never offered any item that was of particular interest, based upon my personal interests).

From a personal standpoint, I would have no problem with an auction house offering items for which it has an ownership interest, when and only when, such interest is openly and plainly disclosed as part of the item's auction description. Similarly, I would have no problem with an authenticator consigning items for auction which they've personally authenticated, again with the caveat that this information be disclosed.

Such open disclosure would allow individual bidders to fairly weigh the potential conflicts that inherently exist and then bid accordingly, giving considerably more credence to the "if you don't like it, don't bid" policy that most auction houses take.

The somewhat incestuous relationship that exists within our hobby is to be expected considering the relatively small number of both the major players on the supply side (dealers, auction houses, authenticators) as well as the number of collectors creating the demand for this niche product. As a result, our hobby is fraught with the potential for conflicts. Without consistent industry-wide policies and a governing body to enforce them, it is highly doubtful that such potential can be eliminated.

What can and should be done, however, is a movement toward a policy of true transparency. By making all known information available to potential bidders/buyers, those on the supply side place the collectors on a more level playing field, allowing us to utilize this information in making our purchasing decisions.

Regards,

[lund6771]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

here's a thought...since this site is much wiser than Lampson...auction houses should preview their auctions here for feedback...it would save them the embaressment of pulling items all the time and would allow the hobby to get cleaned up....Lampson's reputation is garbage, so get rid of him once and for all...now, since they won't have to pay the authentiaction fee, their overhead will diminish, thus they can lower their consignment/hammer fees...Everyone wins!!!!

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?



rudy.