Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

[Eric]

For Eric I have been following this thread with some fascination, just out of curiosity,I would like to know what year, if you know, this helmet is supposed to be from. It seems to me that if it's from a season prior to 1985 the mask should have the older "thicker" bars rather than the RS (reverse strap)"thinner" bars version. If the helmet is supposed to be from 1985 forward then it should have the RS version of the facemask. If that's the case why did it take 2 years to find something that's a stock item?

Lon-

Nice to hear from you. Interested in what you think about this thread.

Kellen retired in 87, so I dated it between '85 and '87 because of the block numbers on the back of the helmet (the Chargers switched from yellow numbers to block numbers on the back of the helmet in '85) Winslow went to the bulky 3 bar facemask in '84.
Eric

[EndzoneSports]

His response was that he has been "transparent as to what has transpired as it relates to the helmet" and that I have all of the information. I should use that information to decide whether or not to bid.

Eric

Having read through this thread with some interest, here's one more opinion to throw gas on the fire...

With some amount of suspicion, I can accept that internal miscommunication within the Mastro organization is what led to the incorrect photos/description originally being posted. Though some elements of the story/time-line seem to be somewhat inconsistent, I would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. It should be noted that I have a neutral opinion of Mastro as I have neither consigned with them nor bid on any of their items (for no reason other than they've never offered any item that was of particular interest, based upon my personal interests).

From a personal standpoint, I would have no problem with an auction house offering items for which it has an ownership interest, when and only when, such interest is openly and plainly disclosed as part of the item's auction description. Similarly, I would have no problem with an authenticator consigning items for auction which they've personally authenticated, again with the caveat that this information be disclosed.

Such open disclosure would allow individual bidders to fairly weigh the potential conflicts that inherently exist and then bid accordingly, giving considerably more credence to the "if you don't like it, don't bid" policy that most auction houses take.

The somewhat incestuous relationship that exists within our hobby is to be expected considering the relatively small number of both the major players on the supply side (dealers, auction houses, authenticators) as well as the number of collectors creating the demand for this niche product. As a result, our hobby is fraught with the potential for conflicts. Without consistent industry-wide policies and a governing body to enforce them, it is highly doubtful that such potential can be eliminated.

What can and should be done, however, is a movement toward a policy of true transparency. By making all known information available to potential bidders/buyers, those on the supply side place the collectors on a more level playing field, allowing us to utilize this information in making our purchasing decisions.

Regards,

[lund6771]

here's a thought...since this site is much wiser than Lampson...auction houses should preview their auctions here for feedback...it would save them the embaressment of pulling items all the time and would allow the hobby to get cleaned up....Lampson's reputation is garbage, so get rid of him once and for all...now, since they won't have to pay the authentiaction fee, their overhead will diminish, thus they can lower their consignment/hammer fees...Everyone wins!!!!

[kingjammy24]

rudy.

[both-teams-played-hard]

[Eric]

Here is the addendum on the Winslow listing

Please Note: The images accompanying this description have been revised. When Mastro Auctions initially acquired the item, the facemask was inconsistent with the type actually used by Kellen Winslow. It has been replaced by the appropriate style of facemask, thus, the facemask accompanying the helmet is not original.

[Eric]

I went back and re-read the emails from the time. Correction- I was offered the helmet (when it had the two bar mask) 6-20-05. I arranged to get my refund 8-8-05.
Eric

[rose14]

Mastros Auctions have turned into one of the most unethical auction houses in the business. The continue to use a very questionable authenticator even after several of their auction items have been exposed and they continue any way to leave them in their auction. Now the president of the auction house is basically admitting to being the owner and "fixing" the helmet that he has in his own auction where he or his employees can manipulate the bidding. Isn't it great to employ an authenticator that can write a COA for you when he had previously looked at the item a year or so earlier and knew the facemask was wrong?

It would be great if Sports Collectors Digest would write a story to expose Mastros, Doug Allen along with Lou Lampson on this helmet issue but I'm sure they don't have the stones to do it since Mastros is one of their advertisers. There are so many stories that they could do on the likes of this but they are too afraid they might ruffle some feathers rather than report it for the good of the hobby.

[Eric]

More fallout from this story:

Citing a December thread on the vintage card forum where Doug Allen said he "had no problem disclosing what we (Mastro) own in the auction" Dave Grob of MEARS has made some interesting statements.

Despite the fact the MEARS has a contract with Mastro for 2007, Dave Grob has announced that he will no longer examine/evaluate any item for Mastro as long as Doug Allen is with the company. He also says he will not bid on any Mastro items while Doug Allen is with Mastro.

Mr. Grob made this announcement on the MEARS board recognizing it could mean he doesn't work for MEARS for the rest of 2007

[Eric]

Dave Bushing has weighed in on the Winslow helmet situation. There is one part of his description which I find troubling. Specifically...

Mr Bushing wrote:

"Next, Doug had mailed this helmet previously to a forum regular who is a football expert and collector. It was returned with notes on the wrong faceguard. Doug had the helmet corrected with a period replacement and then deliberately put it up for auction without disclosing this fact hoping to get it by the collecting public and risking his company reputation for a profit of maybe $1000 and hoping that said expert who watches and bids on many football items in their auction does not notice it and blow the whistle. Possibly, but it does not make any logical sense to me."

First of all, I am not an expert. I am a collector who does the best to research items when buying. I have never represented myself as an expert, because I am not.

What actually happened is, Doug Allen sold this helmet to Vintage Authentics (traded actually) as a game used helmet from the Duke Hott Collection.

Vintage offered it to me for $5500 saying Mastro liked it, Lou Lampson liked it and besides it's from the Duke Hott Collection.

To say "It was returned with notes on the wrong faceguard" minimizes the situation. In actuality it was returned by an angry customer who felt let down by all of the entities involved. I was angry that it took me and not all of the actual experts (people paid to be experts) to realize something was wrong here. My $5500 was at stake here,. It wasn't "sent" to me. It was SOLD to me.

Mr Bushing then wrote: "...hoping that said expert who watches and bids on many football items in their auction does not notice it and blow the whistle."

I would really hope that my bidding tendencies were not a topic of discussion between Mr. Allen and Mr. Bushing. That is not information that should be disclosed.

And something that Mr. Bushing did not comment on which has baffled many people. Why would an auction house modify an item? Is that really the road we should be going down in the hobby?

Should I be wondering what has been modified by an auction house when bidding on an item?

And finally, I think Mr. Grob's comments about disclosure were more about Mastro identifying which lots they have a financial interest in, and less about the switching of the facemask.

Eric