Question About Team Index Bats

[jboosted92]

Re: Question About Team Index Bats


What if you bought a Ferrari DL504... and you said "Hey I thought I was getting a genuine Ferriari..but then came to find out a DL504 was a model reproduced by Chrysler, but was allowed to use the Ferrari Name"


Buyer Beware ---- know your stuff

[JimCaravello]

Re: Question About Team Index Bats

GUU and Forum Members - I know we were all scratching our heads when a Team Indexed Roberto Clemente bat sold in a previous Mastro Auction this year for over $6,000. A MEARS Representative had indicated on their website after the auction that there was now Market Acceptance for Team Index bats from the collecting community and that prices were being driven up in the market because of this so called "Market Acceptance". I never believed that for a moment and as was posted here on GUU and The Forum, I felt that the grade of A7.5 for a bat like that caused two uneducated buyers to go crazy for a bat that "maybe" Clemente actually even saw in the bat rack.

The results from last night's auction prove my point. Last night, three Team Indexed major star bats sold relatively cheaply. Of the three, there was a Clemente grade A7.5 that aslo has a 21 on the knob - here is the description:

The Pittsburgh Pirates' fortunes waned immediately following the squad's 1960 World Series triumph over the New York Yankees. With second-division finishes in three of the four seasons that followed their improbable Fall Classic title, the Bucs suddenly had no answers. Right fielder Roberto Clemente, however, remained the club's pillar, pacing Pittsburgh in each of those trying campaigns with batting marks of .351, .312, .320 and .339. Presented here is a Hillerich & Bradsby "O16" signature model bat wielded by the tragic hero during the 1961-1964 labeling period. This 34", 31-1/2-oz. white ash weapon was turned to the specifications of the Hall of Famer, as factory records reveal shipments of both 34" models and "O16" bats to the Puerto Rican superstar. While no bats with the above-mentioned specifications were shipped directly to Clemente during the '61-'64 manufacturing period, Pirates team records show shipments of these models as team index bats. The offered, uncracked prize has a defined and legible centerbrand and barrel stampings, and shows heavy use, with ball, bat-rack, stitch and surface marks throughout. Additionally, there is scoring upon the hitting surface, as well as checking about the barrel and a vintage black marker notation of Clemente's number "21" on the knob. Graded A-7.5 by MEARS. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS, John Taube/PSA DNA.

FINAL PRICE - $2,405 - a far cry from the $6,000 brought for the previous Clemente mentioned above. I guaranty you this bat would have brough MUCH less without the #21 on the knob........

The two other Team Indexed bats that sold were a Ted Williams bat and a Mickey Mantle bat. Here are the descriptions for those bats:

Ted Williams

Presented is a Hillerich & Bradsby "O1" signature model bat turned for Ted Williams during the final decade of his illustrious playing career. Though the model number is not consistent with those of the bats actually wielded by the Splendid Splinter, this 34", 33-1/2-oz. white ash war club matches Boston Red Sox team index records during the latter portion of the 1950-1960 labeling period. The uncracked item reveals minimal use, retaining its radiant, furniture-like finish, with a few faint surface marks. Graded A-6 by MEARS. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS.
Mears LOA only. FINAL PRICE - $693 - doesn't sould like Market Acceptance to me...............


Mickey Mantle

As the 1960's unfolded, it was business as usual in the American League, as the New York Yankees secured each of the circuit's first five pennants with the usual suspect—Mickey Mantle—administering the bulk of the offensive damage. Here offered is a Bronx Bombers team index bat turned to the specifications of the switch-hitting slugger. Issued during the 1961-1964 labeling period, this 35", 32-oz. "K55" signature model weapon boasts a rich, deep-brown patina that nicely compliments the bat's deep, defined centerbrand and barrel stampings. The item shows significant use, with cleat, bat-rack and surface marks throughout, as well as a professioanlly repaired handle crack and checking about the hitting surface. Graded A-6.5 by MEARS. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS, John Taube/PSA DNA.

FINAL PRICE - $2,186 - no doubt, the 35" length of this bat raised the price of this piece - but still, I don't really think you could call this "Market Acceptance"...........

Hopefully collectors still realize ( and new collectors are learning )what a Team Indexed Bat really is - and the fact that those bats typically have different lengths, weights and grains when compared to actual Player Ordered factory documented bats - and most importantly, they probably were not used by that specific player and it doesn't matter if the bat grades A2 or A9 - or has any grade on it from any authentication company - it's a Team Indexed bat that could have been ordered by the Team or even another player and WAS NOT ordered by the player himself........I don't think the market ever started accepting Team Index bats suddenly this year and as mentioned above, the Clemente that sold earlier this year for over $6,000 was the result of two uneducated buyers driving the price up.....

Jim - jcaravello@nc.rr.com

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Question About Team Index Bats

I, for one, was glad to see that they listed the bats as "index" right in the title, instead of me having to search the fine print. It should have always been that way, but it hasn't.

Ken

[SSB15]

Re: Question About Team Index Bats

Several years ago, I was burned by a major auction house that did not even disclose that the bat did not even match factory records. Instead, I received COA's from two different authenticators that it was a game used bat from the player. The bat's lenght, weight and pine tar matched bats the player normally used. The model number did not match the model number the player normally used for that year.

Needless to say, I was not happy about the nondisclosure. Whould I have bought the bat had I been told the truth, yes. But not for the price I paid. From now on, I insist on reviewing all COA's before I bid on a bat.

One question that comes to mind is how do we know for sure that a team did not order a bat for the player? We all assume that the bat records are accurate and that if the records show a player did not order a bat and the team ordered the bat, then there is no way the player used the bat....Why do we make this assumption that team index bats were not used by players?

[JimCaravello]

Re: Question About Team Index Bats

Hi SSB15 - great question about Team Index Bats. I would refer you to the two blogs I have written in the Experts Corner on Team Index bats. I would also perform a search on the Forum for Team Index Bats and there are many good threads with relevant information that I think will help you.

Once you read the blogs on the Mathews bat I looked at, I think you will see in that particular case, the index bat in question was unlike other bats Eddie personally ordered during that time period. That bat purpotedly had specific language in the Team Index records that it was ordered for Eddie Mathews. My problem with the bat was that it wasn't anything like the bats he ordered himself and I felt that there was a remote possibility that he actually used the bat. That would not be a bat I would be comfortable with in my collection.

You have to make a determination on what you are comfortable with and the examination of attributes of individual players are very important in determining if a team index ordered bat was actually used by the player. An example - I feel that if a player is regularly ordering 35" - 32 ounce bats and there is a team index bat that is 34" and 30 ounces in weight - I find it hard to belive that the player used the bat - especially if he never perosnally ordered 34" bats.

At the end of the day, you have to examine everything that is factual and is available and make a determination if the bat is for you.

Let me know how else I can help and please e-mail me at jcaravello@nc.rr.com with any further questions. Jim

[BMH]

Re: Question About Team Index Bats

Hello everyone,

I'm pretty new to the collecting side of baseball. Could someone give me an accurate description of the term "team index bat" please?

I'm not to familiar with the older records, that's a little beyond me and I'll leave that to people who have been deciphering them for a long time. I am however very well versed in the modern ordering records. In them I have never seen a team order bats with a players name on them unless it was specifically for that player. Unless the order doesn't have a weight and then it's just a souvie.

Now I don't know if players use to do this but a common practice now is a player will order bats for another teammate. The reason for this is even though they are Pros and get the best there is a priority list of players that get the best of the best including wood. So a guy who feels he isn't getting great wood will have another player on the list order bats for him.

[BMH]

Re: Question About Team Index Bats

Well, I stand corrected. I talked to our museum and it seems that was common for the team to order bats, we call them BPAS's . Sorry to add confusion to the thread, just trying to sort out the terminology.