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  1. #1

    Question About Team Index Bats

    Hello Everyone-

    I was recently asked my opinion about the Roberto Clemente team indexed bat that recently sold in Mastro's internet auction for over $6,000. To be honest, I was very surprised that the bat sold for as much as it did. I also understand the bat was graded an A-7.5 by Mears.

    The sale of the Clemente bat raises a question in my mind that I was hoping someone could help me answer. That is, does anyone know how Mears distinguishes a player ordered 7.5 graded bat supported by that player's personal H & B factory records with a team indexed bat graded a 7.5?

    The reason I ask this is because, according to the factory records (Clemente's ordering records are available in the "Bat Player Charts" section of this site), Clemente did not order 34" bats during the 1961-64 label period. In fact, Clemente ordered 34" bats only ONCE in his entire career, in 1957. While the disclosure that is was a team index bats was made by the auction house, does a 7.5 grade denote a certain quality to people who don't know that Clemente did not order 34" bats during this time period? Further, I'd be very curious to know if the winning bidder was aware of the fact that Clemente did not order 34" bats during the 1961-64 time period.

    Here's the description from the Mastro Auctions website:

    "Swashbuckling bats have long been hallmarks of Pittsburgh Pirates teams. Among the most prolific hitters in the proud franchise's history was Roberto Clemente. Presented here is an H&B "O16" signature model bat wielded by Clemente during his fence-clearing days at Forbes Field. This 34", 31-1/2-oz. white ash weapon hails from the 1961-1964 labeling period and factory records indicate that it was shipped as part of a Bucs' team index order. The item reveals evidence of heavy use, with a legible centerbrand and barrel stampings and scoring and checking upon the hitting surface, as well as ball, cleat and surface marks throughout and a black-marker notation of the Hall of Famer's number "21" on the knob. Graded A-7.5 by MEARS. LOA from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS, John Taube/PSA."

    I guess the reason I'm asking these questions is because, to me, that seems like an awfully high grade (and price) for a team indexed bat that I believe has only a slight possibility of ever having actually been in Clemente's hands during a game. In fact, given what I know of Clemente's record card, it seems to me much more likely that this bat was used by some other Pirate player or a minor leaguer. As such, how does the potential buyer distinguish between team index bats and bats ordered by the player when they may have the same grade?

    As I mentioned before, verification of game used items are about probabilities. I'm just wondering if collectors are spending the time to do their own due diligence on items or relying on a grade as the sole determinant for their purchase decision. In addition, can bat experts verify that my understanding of Clemente's ordering patterns are correct?

    I look forward to hearing any other thoughts on this topic.

    Sincerely,
    Chris

  2. #2
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    I cant speak for MEARS, however I can speak for why the price seemed high...

    I think the 21 on the knob (vintage marker...i assume) was a clear indication of high-probability it was in R.C.'s hands..

  3. #3
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    Quote Originally Posted by jboosted92
    I cant speak for MEARS, however I can speak for why the price seemed high...

    I think the 21 on the knob (vintage marker...i assume) was a clear indication of high-probability it was in R.C.'s hands..


    THeres also an argument about Ted Williams index bats... Mastronet months ago sold one that only went for like 1700. And I have heard people claim Ted was meticulious about the size of his bats...

    More the reason the "21" stands out on the R.C. bat

  4. #4
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    It seems to me that Authenticators of Game Used Bats should NOT issue numerical grades for Team Index Bats - PERIOD - especially when there is documentary evidence that the player did not personally order either the model or length of the bat they are grading. A nice letter from the Authenticator stating that it is Team Indexed and disclosing the factual information about the bat which would include the facts compared to personal orders would suffice. The letter should also go on to explain what a Team Indexed Bat really is - and who could have ordered the bat - the team, another player from the same team or another team, a minor league team, etc. This seems practical, pragmatic and logical to me........PLACING A NUMERICAL GRADE ON A TEAM INDEXED BAT IS VERY MISLEADING.........

  5. #5

    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    Quote Originally Posted by jboosted92
    I think the 21 on the knob (vintage marker...i assume) was a clear indication of high-probability it was in R.C.'s hands..
    Hello Justin-

    Thank you for your thoughts on the topic. I actually considered the "21" on the knob as well and have come to a different conclusion than you have regarding the "high-probability" that it was used by Clemente in a game. Here's my logic:

    1) Clemente did not order 34" bats during the 1961-64 label period. As discussed, he only ordered them once in his career in 1957. This bat is a team index bat which, as Jim stated, means it may have been ordered by the team, another player or even a minor league team. In any event, it was not on Clemente personal ordering records.

    2) The auction description states "The item reveals evidence of heavy use". Obviously, this bat was used frequently by whoever "wielded" it. If it was used by Clemente (and obviously he would have liked it based on the "heavy use") why did Clemente not order 34" bats ever again during his career? It would seem if he liked this 34" bat he certainly would have ordered them again (remember Clemente played for 8 more years after the 1964 season).

    3) It is unfortunate that the "21" on the knob was not shown in the auction description, especially since it has been presented here to support that it was likely used by Clemente. At the end of the day, given the points mentioned above and the fact that a number can be added to a knob at any time, I don't think it the "21" on the knob (even if it looked appropriate) would make me change my mind as to the probability of Clemente using this bat in a game.

    Once again, different collectors may have different risk thresholds they are willing to tolerate. However, as I stated before, I think it is important that potential buyers be presented with all the information so they can make informed decisions. I only wonder if the buyer (and under-bidders) understood everything mentioned above when they bid on this bat. If they did, great. If not, I think they may be surprised if they ever try to resell this bat in a more educated marketplace.

    Given the points I mentioned above, my question still remains. That is, how does Mears distinguish between a bat with a reasonably high grade (I consider a 7.5 a reasonably high grade) that is a team index bat and one that matches the player's personal H&B factory records? In my mind, there is a big difference between the two. Unfortunately, I don't know if collectors understand this issue enough to know the difference. While some collectors may believe they are getting one thing, I think over time they may come to realize that, as more information becomes available to the general collecting community, these items may not have the same appeal as some believe they will.

    Once again, this is only my opinion and I may be one of only a few voices in the wilderness. However, over time, I think these type of questions are going to be asked more and more and this type of analysis will be done more often. As such, I believe in the future collectors will approach the decision making process with more rigor and become more discriminate in their purchasing decisions. We only hope this site can help collectors as things move in that direction. Personally, I wouldn't make any purchase decisions today without getting as much information as possible.

    I'm happy to hear other thoughts on the topic.

    Sincerely,
    Chris

  6. #6
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    I understand what you are saying. I even understand that I probably would rather an A3 bat that was in bad shape (minus points for condition) than an a7 for index.

    However, if I was to see the 21 on the knob and somehow determined old patina, and EXACTLY matched other Clemente documented game-used bats "21"'s it would be more believealbe.

    Side-note...I didnt know they DIDNt provide a shot of the "21"...I would have had to see it.

  7. #7
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    JBoosted - you have hit the nail on the head.....a factory documented Clemente that matches personal orders merits a higher price / value ( or a higher grade ) than a team indexed bat. I believe that the 7.5 grade on this bat is very misleading - add the description from the auction house and wala - you create your own inflated market for team index bats. This is really sad.............

  8. #8
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    Jim you are absolutely correct.There are two markets out there: hardcore knowledgable collectors like those of us who frequent this forum dedicated to educating one another about what we collect. Then there is the one who the auction houses and authenticators cater to: the folks who will buy something because it was authenticated by a so called expert.

    Those in the latter
    market will continue pass the index bats and questionable items among those collectors for premium prices while those of us who know better will continue to scratch our heads in disgust.

    David

  9. #9
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    Chris - a review of Clemente's personal ordering records that you referred to are correct. He only ordered 34" bats once in his career - in 1957. I am shocked at the price that this bat brought and my only comment is that you had two uneducated buyers driving the price up on this piece. I remember seeing the bat when the auction first posted and once again I breezed right over it when I saw that the bat was 34" in length. I never gave it another thought and assumed it would sell for less than $1,000 for sure. The fact that it received a 7.5 grade by MEARS and your question of comparing a 7.5 Team Index Grade to a 7.5 Personal Order Grade is an excellent question! What's the difference!? I guess a 7.5 Clemente personal ordered bat would bring twice this?? Because I can tell you - a knowledgeable bat collector who understands team index records vs. personal ordering records wouldn't touch this bat for $6,000.

    I don't care that it had #21 on the knob as I don't think the collector really understands what a Team Index bat may indicate - this particular bat may have been ordered by the team, another player or even a minor league team. Anyone could have placed the #21 on the knob. Full disclosure should have been made which I have mentioned in the past that he only ordered 34" bats once during his career. What's even more disturbing is that the description for the bat includes the following:

    Presented here is an H&B "O16" signature model bat wielded by Clemente during his fence-clearing days at Forbes Field.

    When you read this you think - ok - Clemente used this bat - it grades a 7.5 - it must be great!! Unfortunately, uneducated buyers think 7.5 means value and in this case, it doesn't.

    Here's a question for you - why would I not pay $5 for this bat and someone would pay $6,000 for it? The answer - they don't know what I know about shipping records and they are relying on a glossy catalog description and a grade of 7.5 and they really don't understand what's behind it............the best thing about this site is that we can educate buyers so they don't make mistakes and this is an excellent post!!!

    I would love to hear others take on Chris's question........

    Lastly, I feel sorry for the winning bidder, because they probably think they have a gem - and what they really have is a big ? mark. Jim

  10. #10
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    GUU and Forum Members - I know we were all scratching our heads when a Team Indexed Roberto Clemente bat sold in a previous Mastro Auction this year for over $6,000. A MEARS Representative had indicated on their website after the auction that there was now Market Acceptance for Team Index bats from the collecting community and that prices were being driven up in the market because of this so called "Market Acceptance". I never believed that for a moment and as was posted here on GUU and The Forum, I felt that the grade of A7.5 for a bat like that caused two uneducated buyers to go crazy for a bat that "maybe" Clemente actually even saw in the bat rack.

    The results from last night's auction prove my point. Last night, three Team Indexed major star bats sold relatively cheaply. Of the three, there was a Clemente grade A7.5 that aslo has a 21 on the knob - here is the description:

    The Pittsburgh Pirates' fortunes waned immediately following the squad's 1960 World Series triumph over the New York Yankees. With second-division finishes in three of the four seasons that followed their improbable Fall Classic title, the Bucs suddenly had no answers. Right fielder Roberto Clemente, however, remained the club's pillar, pacing Pittsburgh in each of those trying campaigns with batting marks of .351, .312, .320 and .339. Presented here is a Hillerich & Bradsby "O16" signature model bat wielded by the tragic hero during the 1961-1964 labeling period. This 34", 31-1/2-oz. white ash weapon was turned to the specifications of the Hall of Famer, as factory records reveal shipments of both 34" models and "O16" bats to the Puerto Rican superstar. While no bats with the above-mentioned specifications were shipped directly to Clemente during the '61-'64 manufacturing period, Pirates team records show shipments of these models as team index bats. The offered, uncracked prize has a defined and legible centerbrand and barrel stampings, and shows heavy use, with ball, bat-rack, stitch and surface marks throughout. Additionally, there is scoring upon the hitting surface, as well as checking about the barrel and a vintage black marker notation of Clemente's number "21" on the knob. Graded A-7.5 by MEARS. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS, John Taube/PSA DNA.

    FINAL PRICE - $2,405 - a far cry from the $6,000 brought for the previous Clemente mentioned above. I guaranty you this bat would have brough MUCH less without the #21 on the knob........

    The two other Team Indexed bats that sold were a Ted Williams bat and a Mickey Mantle bat. Here are the descriptions for those bats:

    Ted Williams

    Presented is a Hillerich & Bradsby "O1" signature model bat turned for Ted Williams during the final decade of his illustrious playing career. Though the model number is not consistent with those of the bats actually wielded by the Splendid Splinter, this 34", 33-1/2-oz. white ash war club matches Boston Red Sox team index records during the latter portion of the 1950-1960 labeling period. The uncracked item reveals minimal use, retaining its radiant, furniture-like finish, with a few faint surface marks. Graded A-6 by MEARS. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS.
    Mears LOA only. FINAL PRICE - $693 - doesn't sould like Market Acceptance to me...............


    Mickey Mantle

    As the 1960's unfolded, it was business as usual in the American League, as the New York Yankees secured each of the circuit's first five pennants with the usual suspect—Mickey Mantle—administering the bulk of the offensive damage. Here offered is a Bronx Bombers team index bat turned to the specifications of the switch-hitting slugger. Issued during the 1961-1964 labeling period, this 35", 32-oz. "K55" signature model weapon boasts a rich, deep-brown patina that nicely compliments the bat's deep, defined centerbrand and barrel stampings. The item shows significant use, with cleat, bat-rack and surface marks throughout, as well as a professioanlly repaired handle crack and checking about the hitting surface. Graded A-6.5 by MEARS. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS, John Taube/PSA DNA.

    FINAL PRICE - $2,186 - no doubt, the 35" length of this bat raised the price of this piece - but still, I don't really think you could call this "Market Acceptance"...........

    Hopefully collectors still realize ( and new collectors are learning )what a Team Indexed Bat really is - and the fact that those bats typically have different lengths, weights and grains when compared to actual Player Ordered factory documented bats - and most importantly, they probably were not used by that specific player and it doesn't matter if the bat grades A2 or A9 - or has any grade on it from any authentication company - it's a Team Indexed bat that could have been ordered by the Team or even another player and WAS NOT ordered by the player himself........I don't think the market ever started accepting Team Index bats suddenly this year and as mentioned above, the Clemente that sold earlier this year for over $6,000 was the result of two uneducated buyers driving the price up.....

    Jim - jcaravello@nc.rr.com

 

 

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