Innocent until proven guilty

[3arod13]

As we all know, it suppose to be "innocent until proven guilty." However, in today's society, it's seems more like it's always "guilty until proven innocent."

As I watched ESPN News this morning, John Kruk said without a doubt, Sammy Sosa is a sure Hall of Famer. He said it hasn't been proven that Sammy Sosa used steriods (although we all know he did, especially based on how he used an interpreter at the hearing and we all know why he did that), so there should be no asteriks next to Sosa's name.

O. J. Simpson - not proven guilty, but many believe he did it. Is he is jail...NO!

Many of us don't like cheaters. However, I do agree with Kruk that Sammy Sosa hasn't been found guilty of anything and until he is found guilty, you can't punish him or anyone else.

We all have mixed opinions about it and are all sick of talking about it.

Bottom line to me is, until proven guilty, he, McGwire, Palmerio, Bonds, etc. should not be punished for what we all believe. We all know many in the past, present, and most likely the future, will continue to cheat. There are proven cheaters in the Hall of Fame.

As an avid Juan Gonzalez collector for many years, once I knew he used steriods (yes, not proven but it my opinion, he did), I made the choice to no longer be a fan or collect of Juan Gonzalez.

Overall, it's a sad situation for all.

[JasonM33]

I ask you this. You gave up being a fan of Juan but what makes you think Arod is clean? Even if he is, there's no way to prove that he's clean. How about Griffey? They are ALL tainted. To be fair you'd have to punish all of them or none of them. It's not really possible to punish all of them so in my opinion no one should be punished. Steroids are a problem that is too complex and far reaching to ever be fixed. You can only shrug and accept it. I think it's up to each individual to decide how they feel about it.

Unfortunately we are in a situation where the clueless sportswriters with their phony outrage have become the judge, jury and executioner. These sportswriters are human beings with their own opinions, biases and agendas. Inevitably, some players are going to be singled out and made and example of, while others are going to get a free pass. The question is who gets a free pass and what funky logic are they going to use to justify it.

-Jason M

[3arod13]

I ask you this. You gave up being a fan of Juan but what makes you think Arod is clean? Even if he is, there's no way to prove that he's clean. How about Griffey? They are ALL tainted. To be fair you'd have to punish all of them or none of them. It's not really possible to punish all of them so in my opinion no one should be punished. Steroids are a problem that is too complex and far reaching to ever be fixed. You can only shrug and accept it. I think it's up to each individual to decide how they feel about it.

Unfortunately we are in a situation where the clueless sportswriters with their phony outrage have become the judge, jury and executioner. These sportswriters are human beings with their own opinions, biases and agendas. Inevitably, some players are going to be singled out and made and example of, while others are going to get a free pass. The question is who gets a free pass and what funky logic are they going to use to justify it.

-Jason M

Jason, if you read my comments, I agree with you. I stated, "innocent until proven guilty." The only player we know for a fact that used steriods it JOSE CANSECO. That's only because he admitted it.

As far as Juan Gonzalez is concerned, he's also innocent until proven guilty. However, me no longer being a fan or collector of Juan Gonzalez...that is my personal choice. I no longer have any respect for him as a player. Again, that's my personal choice. If he was inducted into the Hall of Fame, then so be it. Again, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Players have been doing and taking things to enhance their ability for years. Pitchers scuffing up/greasing baseball to cheat...on and on and on.

I still say, "innocent until proven guilty." Punishing or convicting someone based on what we believe, it ridiculous!!

Tony

[3arod13]

I ask you this. You gave up being a fan of Juan but what makes you think Arod is clean? Jason M

Nothing has come out about Arod not being clean. JOSE CANSECO admitted that he helped Juan Gonzalez with steroids. I watched Juan Gonzalez over the years, and even before he was mentioned/connected with steriods, I believed he was doing/taking something.

By me no longer being a fan or collector of Juan Gonzalez because of allegations of his steroid use, does this mean I believe he's guilty...YES. Again, that's my personal opinion/choice. By me choosing to do this, this doesn't stop him from going into the hall of fame...suspend him from baseball...etc.

This isn't new to sports. Players have been taking things for years to enhance their ability.

[JasonM33]

Hey bro,

Please don't missunderstand me. I do agree with you 100%. I just wanted to make a few points to illustrate that a degree of hipocrisy is built-in to this scandal and it's only going to get worse. You re right though, it should be innocent until proven guilty. So, who has been proven guilty so far. Bonds supposedly talked to the grand jury. Giambi, Palmero. These are the only guys I can think of. Oh yeah, didn't Sosa get busted with a corked bat? He he he. So, that begs the question. How many of his 600 homers were hit with a corked bat? What a joke.

-Jason M

[3arod13]

Hey bro,

Please don't missunderstand me. I do agree with you 100%. I just wanted to make a few points to illustrate that a degree of hipocrisy is built-in to this scandal and it's only going to get worse. You re right though, it should be innocent until proven guilty. So, who has been proven guilty so far. Bonds supposedly talked to the grand jury. Giambi, Palmero. These are the only guys I can think of. Oh yeah, didn't Sosa get busted with a corked bat? He he he. So, that begs the question. How many of his 600 homers were hit with a corked bat? What a joke.

-Jason M

Jason, we are both on the same page. Appreciate your comments.

Tony

[staindsox]

There are different ways of being "guilty." Anyone who read the SF Chronicle book or the Pearlman book on Bonds knows he's guilty. Proving someone guilty in a court of law...especially when people go to jail to protect you, isn't as easy as knowing someone is guilty. Bonds without a doubt is a user and there is more than enough proof to know this. Before Selig, a commissioner may have banned Bonds, just like Rose or Joe Jackson.

Sosa is a different case. His name hasn't been connected to anything. I think he used, but nobody has ever said that he has. There is more proof that Clemens has than Sosa. I don't think you can keep him out, whereas you could with Giambi, McGwire, Bonds, Sheffield, Tejada, Palmeiro...even Clemens.

***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***

BASEBALL IS NOT A COURT OF LAW. THE 1919 SOX WERE EVEN FOUND INNOCENT IN A COURT OF LAW, BUT EVERY SINGLE ONE, REGARDLESS OF HOW "GUILTY," WERE KICKED OUT OF THE GAME. NOT JUST KEPT OUT OF A "HALL OF FAME," BUT EXPELLED FROM THE GAME, THEIR LIVELIHOOD TAKEN FROM THEM. BASEBALL CAN DO WHATEVER IT LIKES, IT ANSWERS TO NOONE.

Selig could kick Barry out tomorrow if he were a "real" commissioner and not a puppet for the owners (yes, he is an owner and he always held their best interests in mind, not the game's). Remember even Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were permanently banned from the game at one point? Baseball has always had its own rules and has never had to prove its case in making any decision.

Chris

[3arod13]

[quote=staindsox;43705]There are different ways of being "guilty." Anyone who read the SF Chronicle book or the Pearlman book on Bonds knows he's guilty. Proving someone guilty in a court of law...especially when people go to jail to protect you, isn't as easy as knowing someone is guilty. Bonds without a doubt is a user and there is more than enough proof to know this. Before Selig, a commissioner may have banned Bonds, just like Rose or Joe Jackson.

Sosa is a different case. His name hasn't been connected to anything. I think he used, but nobody has ever said that he has. There is more proof that Clemens has than Sosa. I don't think you can keep him out, whereas you could with Giambi, McGwire, Bonds, Sheffield, Tejada, Palmeiro...even Clemens.

***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***

BASEBALL IS NOT A COURT OF LAW. THE 1919 SOX WERE EVEN FOUND INNOCENT IN A COURT OF LAW, BUT EVERY SINGLE ONE, REGARDLESS OF HOW "GUILTY," WERE KICKED OUT OF THE GAME. NOT JUST KEPT OUT OF A "HALL OF FAME," BUT EXPELLED FROM THE GAME, THEIR LIVELIHOOD TAKEN FROM THEM. BASEBALL CAN DO WHATEVER IT LIKES, IT ANSWERS TO NOONE.

Selig could kick Barry out tomorrow if he were a "real" commissioner and not a puppet for the owners (yes, he is an owner and he always held their best interests in mind, not the game's). Remember even Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were permanently banned from the game at one point? Baseball has always had its own rules and has never had to prove its case in making any decision.

Chris, well said. Thanks for the comments!

On another note. The big deal about Arod and the blonde. Has anything been proven he was doing anything wrong? Although that should be between him and his wife, and nobody else.

I was suprised that a company terminated their contract with him based on the media. I find that ridiculous also. Speculation he was doing something wrong, not factual. Did anyone hear any updates on Arod and the blonde?

Tony/quote]

[bigtime59]

However talented a player he may be, Pay-Rod is an extremely insecure, tone-deaf doofus with a taste for East German strippers...and he plays for the Yankee$. There is enough of his stuff out there, to make you believe that quite a bit of it is "questionable", yet it remains extremely expensive.
Collecting his stuff isn't even on my radar screen. It's bad enough to get burned on a Dale Sveum Diamondbacks jersey for $300. Getting burned on a Pay-Rod jersey for $3000, well, that's a kettle of fish I don't care to sample.

Mark
bigtime39@aol.com

[cjclong]

The only thing I know about "ARod and the blonde" is that ARod's wife, who people took great joy in reporting was packing her bags to leave him, was actually going to meet him in Boston and there were pitures of them there together. The steroid question on this thread is a legitimate question for baseball and everyone will have different opinions. Why people would take delight in hoping a player's marrigage would break up is beyond me.