ESPN OUTSIDE THE LINES-McGWIRE

[sylbry]

Innocent until proven guilty? Sure that works in a court of law. Last time I checked McGwire isn't in a courtroom.

Earlier someone mentioned this country was founded on that principle. Yes, and it was also founded by people tired of being told what to do and what to think. In the courtroom of common sense McGwire couldn't be more guilty. Just because he did a good job of destroying evidence doesn't mean he didn't cheat. Just because I didn't get a speeding ticket in my car today doesn't mean I didn't speed. It means I didn't get caught. Now tell me was there a testing policy in place during the McGwire era? How many people were busted during that time? Afterall Giambi makes it sound like everyone was doing it.

By all means collect what you want to collect and believe what you want to believe however I refuse to give a free pass to a cheater because he did a good job of not getting caught.

And on steriods in general, the stuff players took were steps ahead of what was being tested. It isn't like they were buying stuff from your local roid dealer at the gym. They were designed to not be detected. HGH is still undetectable. It is pretty easy to pass a drug test when they don't test you for what you are taking.

[mr.miracle]

Howard, great job on ESPN. It was a very well done piece indeed. Despite all the controversey surrounding McGwire and steroids, I find it most interesting that he is the only member of the 500 home run club eligible for the HOF that is not in the HOF. This is a pretty obvious point that I was reminded of this morning when I watched the outside the lines piece. Whatever your point of view on McGwire, the fact remains that this man has nearly 600 home runs and unless somebody rewrites the books on what qualifies a person for the HOF, this guy deserves to go in.

There was a great piece on ESPN two weeks ago when Biggio got his 3000th hit and Thomas his 500th homer asking whether or not the three traditional benchmarks in baseball that have traditionally guarenteed HOF induction still stand. Those being 500 homers, 3000 hits and 300 wins. Of all members of those three clubs that are eligible based upon retirement rules, only two Pete Rose banned from baseball and Big Mac are not in the HOF. The analyst on ESPN said that his feeling was that of the three, the one which has been watered down is 500 homers based upon how many members have been added to the club or will be added over the last five years and next five years. Only two players currently playing are pretty much locks to join the 3000 hit club over the next 5-7 years and those are ARod and Jeter barring injury. We will see a number of players reach 500 or 600 homers in the next couple of years which would make the 500 home run club traditionally the most exlusive in baseball close to tying the 3000 hit club in terms of number of members.

What is really absurd is those idiot sports writers who are refusing to vote for anyone from this era based upon the possibility that anybody could have used steroids. That must have held true especially in the case of Tony Gwynn this year based upon his chisled physique lol.

If McGwire ultimately does not get in based upon conjecture that he used steroids which of course as Howard pointed out has never been proven, then Sammy Sosa, Ken Griffey Jr. Barry Bonds, Rafael Palmeiro, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez all current or future 500 home run club members should also be excluded based upon the assinine reasoning of the voters.

As Andrew pointed out several times on this forum as well as the ESPN piece highlighted, McGwire really hurt himself on Capitol Hill before congress. I just wonder what would be considered worse, McGwire refusing to discuss the past or other suspected steroid users being confronted by Congress at some point and telling outright lies on the witness stand in terms of their own use history.

The fact that all of these steroid issues have been in the public eye now for 3 -5 years makes me wonder why nobody can ever conclusively prove that anyone took steroids. Howard is right in his assessment on Outside the Lines, where are the sales receipts, the unquestioned witnesses, the conslusive proof on anyone?

I highly doubt that players like Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa and McGwire if they used steroids were scoring these on the street corner from one eyed jimmy. Obviously somebody somewhere knows the truth but nobody will come forward. All we are ultimately left with is conjecture and speculation.

The ultimate question is conjecture and speculation enough to permanentely withhold otherwise more than worthy candidates from the HOF? We all know that without steroid speculation there would be absolutely no doubt that Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Thomas, Griffey, Ramirez, Thome etc. would be absolute locks for the HOF. Sadly, the world we live in today does presume everyone is guilty until proven innocent and that is what we are forced to live with.

[possum]

Last time I checked McGwire isn't in a courtroom.

Uh, when he was it was a disgraceful sight. But this thread isn't about Mark and Barry cheating or the INCREDIBLY FLAWED HOF election process. Its about Howard on Outside the Lines.

[cjmedina1]

Uh, when he was it was a disgraceful sight. But this thread isn't about Mark and Barry cheating or the INCREDIBLY FLAWED HOF election process. Its about Howard on Outside the Lines.

Possum
I'm sorry you feel this thread got off track.There was a question that was asked and some of us chimed in on it.

Carlie Medina III
carliemedinaiii@sbcglobal.net

[pietraynor]

Didn't get a chance to see the show, but will be looking for it..Congrats..Wouldn't it be nice if some of the sports media (TV/Print/Web) included collectors in the shows/articles they produce/write? Such as interviewing or showing some items from major Ripken or Gwynn collectors during the upcoming HOF inductions or how about interviewing a collector who specializes in All-Star game items during the All-Star break, etc. Jay.

[TNTtoys]

Has anyone seen this interview surface anywhere on the web? I am sorry to have missed it and would love to see a copy if one exists... thanks!

[hblakewolf]

Thanks to everyone for the warm words. I had no idea how much footage would be included, but was pleased with the overall story and "15 seconds of fame". The Producer flew in from Washington DC, and the camercrew/audio crew were local. It took about an hour for them to set up in my back yard, 15 minutes for the interview, and then we spent about an hour inside my home talking about the collection and having them shoot footage of the bats, jerseys, etc. I was surprised that they did not include the shot of my Ripken, Gwynn and MAC jerseys, however.

I have asked the Producer for a DVD of the show, and expect to get it soon. Other than this copy and a VHS I made, I have not seen it surface on the web or Youtube. I have to believe, however, that it will repeat during the next few weeks. Trying to locate a schedule for Outside the Lines is impossible-no idea where one exists.

I'm still seeking a few game used McGwire items for my collection including:
A's jerseys-with team LOA only
A's helmet
A's jacket with embroidered NOB
Cards helmet
Cards pre-game with NOB

Thanks again-
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[possum]

Possum
I'm sorry you feel this thread got off track.There was a question that was asked and some of us chimed in on it.

Carlie Medina III
carliemedinaiii@sbcglobal.net

Yeah I understand. I couldn't dislike Mark or Barry more than I already do, but it so rare that our community gets major public airtime like this that we should keep it to congratulating Howard. He did a great job. Just my honest opinion.

[TNTtoys]

Trying to locate a schedule for Outside the Lines is impossible-no idea where one exists.

Howard,

I managed to find this on ESPN's website:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espntv/espnShow?showID=SRON

However, all it manages to state is the time that the segment airs, but not the content. Not sure if there is any way to find out which editions air when.

Nick

[TNTtoys]

I managed to find this as well, however, when I clicked the 'video' link, I got nothing. Might be an issue with my firewall...can anyone else out there check?