Question for the community

[Marlins2003]

I'd like several opinions on this.


When in the middle of negotiating a price of an item with a seller, the seller makes a claim to have previously sold many of the same items for X amount.

Is it wrong to ask the seller to stand by that claim and show you where they've sold said item for X amount?



I mean, with my business background I've never once taken the word of a wholesaler that the price they tell me something sells for is the the price I will actually get.

I strictly go by the current market. The price the market dictates it the price I expect to get (depending on many other factors of course).


So if the market suggests that $250-$300 is the actual going rate of an item yet the seller claims to have sold many of the same item for $400-$500, wouldn't it be in my best interest to ask them to provide proof of such a claim - by asking them to show even one completed auction or a link to any one of these items that has sold for over $400?

Or is the seller right in blasting me, claiming to be highly insulted and refusing to do business with me because i called them a liar (which does not affect me either way as there are many sellers in the market)?


A more simple anology would be that if you know a certain jersey goes for $1000 but I tried selling mine to you for $1800 and told you "Hey, I sell these all day long at $1800-$2200!" Wouldn't you be inclined to ask me to show you where I've sold my jerseys for those prices?

[David]

Re: Question for the community

I don't think yours was an unfair question.

[zonker]

Re: Question for the community

i think that was the right question to ask. if i'm looking to do bussiness with anyone and they make statements that seem out of the norm. then you asking for proof, it's your right, if for nothing else to educate yourself or catch up on fair market value's. and if the seller took it as an insult or perssonaly like he did. that would lead me to belive that if he wasn't honest in his statements he should have no problem providing proof as it will help him get a better price on his item's. but in this case it seem's the seller got caught in a lie and nobody like's that! and useally take it personal and get defensive. i think your better off not doing bussiness with someone like this, if they cant keep there personal feeling's and bussiness seperate from each other. what's next?

[Marlins2003]

Re: Question for the community

Thank you both. I too feel that I was not wrong.

Anyone else? I'm just trying to get a general feel from as many members here as possible.

[Marlins2003]

Re: Question for the community

Last time up, anyone else want to toss in an opinion?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Question for the community

"Is it wrong to ask the seller to stand by that claim and show you where they've sold said item for X amount?"

ultimately, it's irrelevant. is it going to change anything if the seller shows you a sale for X amount? are you then going to turn around and pay their price or would you then start debating how it must be an anomaly and not truly representative? do you think that pulling out sales data is going to make the seller change their price? it's all just an argument for arguments sake.

you have your price, they have theirs and regardless of who's right, neither of you seem willing to budge, so what's the point of seeing who's right? if he won't lower his price and you won't increase yours, then this entire exercise of asking for sales data is nothing more than a meaningless pissing contest.

"A more simple anology would be that if you know a certain jersey goes for $1000 but I tried selling mine to you for $1800 and told you "Hey, I sell these all day long at $1800-$2200!" Wouldn't you be inclined to ask me to show you where I've sold my jerseys for those prices?"

no. i wouldn't be inclined to ask that because i'm not into wasting my time. if he wanted to sell it for $1k then he would've. if i was willing to spend $1800, then i would've already. if noone's budging, then who cares whose sales data is accurate. at the end of the day, he isn't making the sale and you aren't getting the item. your best interests lie in finding the item at the price you want, not in wasting your time to determine who's got the most accurate sales data.

rudy.

[Marlins2003]

Re: Question for the community

"Is it wrong to ask the seller to stand by that claim and show you where they've sold said item for X amount?"

ultimately, it's irrelevant. is it going to change anything if the seller shows you a sale for X amount? are you then going to turn around and pay their price or would you then start debating how it must be an anomaly and not truly representative? do you think that pulling out sales data is going to make the seller change their price? it's all just an argument for arguments sake.

you have your price, they have theirs and regardless of who's right, neither of you seem willing to budge, so what's the point of seeing who's right? if he won't lower his price and you won't increase yours, then this entire exercise of asking for sales data is nothing more than a meaningless pissing contest.

"A more simple anology would be that if you know a certain jersey goes for $1000 but I tried selling mine to you for $1800 and told you "Hey, I sell these all day long at $1800-$2200!" Wouldn't you be inclined to ask me to show you where I've sold my jerseys for those prices?"

no. i wouldn't be inclined to ask that because i'm not into wasting my time. if he wanted to sell it for $1k then he would've. if i was willing to spend $1800, then i would've already. if noone's budging, then who cares whose sales data is accurate. at the end of the day, he isn't making the sale and you aren't getting the item. your best interests lie in finding the item at the price you want, not in wasting your time to determine who's got the most accurate sales data.

rudy.

The point of this exercise was not to see who was right and who was wrong. And no, this was far from a pissing contest.

I merely asked the seller to back up their claim of specific previous sale prices. A common practice for anyone buying merchandise that is not as easy to get as a shirt off a Macy's rack (i.e game used memorabilia).

It was however, to show that in this "community" (where we must depend on truth and honesty from one another and must root out those who are not truthful and honest) that some "highly reputable" dealers fall victim to the greed of the almighty dollar and choose to lie to potential customers in order to try and get a sale.

As Zonker said, the sellers abrupt defensive response was an age old indicator that they were caught in a lie and were agrrevated and/or embarrassed by it.


I will not openly bash the seller here, because I know they are well known here and I know the sharks will turn on me in a heart beat.


What I now know for sure is that atleast a few members here agree that I took the right steps in trying to make sure I wasn't being swindled.


The bottom line is that pracatices such as lying and trying to deceive a potential customer into buying an item at a fabricated price cannot notbe allowed in this hobby from anyone, especially a so-called well known, reputable dealer.


Ultimately, the choice to buy is mine. And of course, I am wise enough to walk away from any bad deal. But that still does not excuse the seller for attempting to pull the games they tried to play.



That's all.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: Question for the community

I mean, with my business background I've never once taken the word of a wholesaler that the price they tell me something sells for is the the price I will actually get.

I think you are somewhat misguided. Usually, game worn jerseys are one-of-a-kind and not available in bulk rate. If you don't like the price, do not buy it. Do you think the seller should produce a copy of the receipts of his past transactions? Your business background should have taught you...prices may change daily...the market changes daily. What is the item you were trying to buy?

[Marlins2003]

Re: Question for the community

I think you are somewhat misguided. Usually, game worn jerseys are one-of-a-kind and not available in bulk rate. If you don't like the price, do not buy it. Do you think the seller should produce a copy of the receipts of his past transactions? Your business background should have taught you...prices may change daily...the market changes daily. What is the item you were trying to buy?

I may have used bad anology. But hardly miguided. I was looking into purchasing another gu bat for my collection, to which there are enough available. The going rate for said bat is $250-$300. The seller claimed to have been selling said bats easily at $400-$500 and that my prices were incorrect, even though I've been buying them long enough to know better.

The bottom line is that the seller lied, that is clear. Their over the top reaction was evidence of that. Anyone using a seconds worth of common sense can see that.

Of course I am not buying an item, only a fool would overpay for an item that is readily available elsewhere. That's never been the issue here.

The issue has been and still is the fact that the seller blatantly lied in order to try and make a sale, got called on it and jumped on the defensive because they had nowhere else to turn. I find that pathetic and low.

As a side note, because I see where some of this is going. I own many gu bats and many of this particular player. And to boot, after a few days of negotiating I closed a deal tonight for another one.....with an HONEST seller who was forthright with information, pictures and answered any questions I had without batting an eye. An agreement was made and payment will be sent Mon. morning. THAT is what this hobby is about, not sellers trying to fleece you because they feel they can. - Bolded for emphasis.

[aeneas01]

Re: Question for the community

I was looking into purchasing another gu bat for my collection, to which there are enough available. The going rate for said bat is $250-$300. The seller claimed to have been selling said bats easily at $400-$500 and that my prices were incorrect, even though I've been buying them long enough to know better.

please don't take this personally but i really must be missing something here - if you knew such bats were readily available at a going rate of $250-$300, then why would you even bother asking the dealer for proof of his claims? why not just a) tell the dealer you've been collecting gu bats for years b) you are interested in the bat he has for sale c) point him to the "enough available" bats going for $250-$300 and c) tell him if he's willing to come close to these going rates you'll take the bat.

i mean, frankly, i'm surprised the dealer didn't ask you why you were wasting his time asking for supporting evidence of his claims if such a bat was so readily available at a much cheaper price elsewhere - know what i mean?

[Marlins2003]

Re: Question for the community

please don't take this personally but i really must be missing something here - if you knew such bats were readily available at a going rate of $250-$300, then why would you even bother asking the dealer for proof of his claims? why not just a) tell the dealer you've been collecting gu bats for years b) you are interested in the bat he has for sale c) point him to the "enough available" bats going for $250-$300 and c) tell him if he's willing to come close to these going rates you'll take the bat.

i mean, frankly, i'm surprised the dealer didn't ask you why you were wasting his time asking for supporting evidence of his claims if such a bat was so readily available at a much cheaper price elsewhere - know what i mean?

I hear you, and take no offense. I went that road early on in the negotiating process.

I still stand my what I have said all along. For arguements sake, in this particular hobby (game used collecting) a certain amount of trust has to be built between buyer and seller. I am sure that each of us here has atleast one seller that we wouldn't hesitate to buy from sight unseen. I know I have three such sellers. So when a seller is caught in a blatant bold faced lie, it becomes more of an integrity issue that an issue of whether or not I want the item.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Question for the community

"..the seller lied, that is clear. Their over the top reaction was evidence of that...So when a seller is caught in a blatant bold faced lie.."

i find it ludicrous that an agitated response is what constitutes "clear evidence of a blatant, bold faced lie". it sounds to me like the seller perceived you as someone who wouldn't buy the bat regardless of what data was presented. answer this honestly: if the seller had provided you with photocopies of previous sales of the bat at $400-500 each, would you have bought the bat? it likely would've turned into a debate over whose data was more reliable. very few have the patience to engage in swap meet antics. their reluctance to do is hardly "clear evidence of a blatant lie" and to say otherwise borders on libel.

you were looking for a $200-300 bat. his wasn't that price. rather than moving on and not wasting his time, you decided to enter into a debate about FMV and he likely didn't have the patience. anyway, you wanted past sales of cabrera bats at $400-$500. here you go. now that you have these, i trust that you'll go back and buy his bat?

$678

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=26351

$421

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=32368

$1758

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=33659

if you don't want to pay a certain price, don't. to say that because someone lost their patience in dealing with you means they "clearly lied" is nothing but reckless conjecture.

rudy.

[Marlins2003]

Re: Question for the community

"..the seller lied, that is clear. Their over the top reaction was evidence of that...So when a seller is caught in a blatant bold faced lie.."

i find it ludicrous that an agitated response is what constitutes "clear evidence of a blatant, bold faced lie". it sounds to me like the seller perceived you as someone who wouldn't buy the bat regardless of what data was presented. answer this honestly: if the seller had provided you with photocopies of previous sales of the bat at $400-500 each, would you have bought the bat? it likely would've turned into a debate over whose data was more reliable. very few have the patience to engage in swap meet antics. their reluctance to do is hardly "clear evidence of a blatant lie" and to say otherwise borders on libel.

you were looking for a $200-300 bat. his wasn't that price. rather than moving on and not wasting his time, you decided to enter into a debate about FMV and he likely didn't have the patience. anyway, you wanted past sales of cabrera bats at $400-$500. here you go. now that you have these, i trust that you'll go back and buy his bat?

$678

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=26351

$421

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=32368

$1758

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=33659

if you don't want to pay a certain price, don't. to say that because someone lost their patience in dealing with you means they "clearly lied" is nothing but reckless conjecture.

rudy.

First, you should not make assupmptions on my character without knowing me.

Secondly, had your links showed conclusively that I was wrong with my market prices that would have been one thing.

You showed me links that I seen a dozen times over. 2 auto'd bats and a PSA/DNA graded 8 bat. Of course they will sell higher than a simple gu bat with no COA or LOA from a major name like PSA. Neither of which show pricing for a plain old gu bat, non autographed, non graded.

This changes nothing. I don't know how to make that much clearer. Had you showed me a consistant record (3 closed auctions would be sufficient) of his plain old gu bats selling for $400+ then I would be wrong in what I consider to be his gu bat price.

And yes, if that were the case I would immediately hit the BIN on the bat that originally started this debate. I like the bat, just not the gauged price.

As it stands now, I still have no interest for this particular bat, from this particular seller due to the fact that the price is clearly $200 over current maket value.

I'm, truly sorry if I'm like some of you other collectors who have larger than life egos and will buy anything at any price just to say "I own it". lol That's juvenile and perhaps a bit OCD.

First and foremost, I make sure that I am happy with every purchase I make. And that I pay the price that something is worth, not the price that a greedy seller wants. I've been in this game far too long.

I do appreciate though, in your defense of the seller (to which it is clear atleast you are aware of who they are) that you try to turn the tables on me. This was the shark attack mentality I was waiting for.

They lie, they are rude and obnoxious in their responses to me yet you try to make me out to be the bad guy.

Very nice. lol

Well sir, I have enjoyed this little debate if you will. In the end I stand my what I have said, the market value is $250-$300 for non-momentous bats such as All Star game, HR bats etc

The seller is free to charge what they want, it is their item. But to lie in doing so, that is low and pathethic.

As I look over at my multitude of bats, several gu jerseys and two batting helmets I can be pleased with every purchase. I know that each is authentic and that I paid a fair and reasonable price for each. I hope that you can say the same for your collectibles.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: Question for the community

That's juvenile and perhaps a bit OCD.

Yes. I agree. That is a very big part of the problem!

[kingjammy24]

Re: Question for the community

"Of course they will sell higher than a simple gu bat with no COA or LOA from a major name like PSA. Neither of which show pricing for a plain old gu bat, non autographed, non graded."

$678 = $200-$300 for the bat, $478-$378 for the PSA/DNA authentication
http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/A...ction_ID=26351

$1758 = $200-$300 for the bat, $478-$378 for the PSA/DNA authentication, leaving $1080 for the cabrera autograph.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/A...ction_ID=33659

right. those numbers definitely make sense. if you believe $378-$478 is the going rate for Taube to authenticate your $200-$300 bat, please let me know. i can have your bat authenticated by him for only $250. just make the check out to me.

to answer your original question:

"..is the seller right in ..claiming to be highly insulted..because i called them a liar"

yes.

rudy.