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Thread: Muhammad Ali Auto-Pen
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09-16-2013, 12:38 AM #1
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Muhammad Ali Auto-Pen
So I buy the following postcard autographed by Muhammad Ali on eBay in a lot with some other items:
I submit it to PSA/DNA who come back and tell me it's not a genuine signature, it's an auto-pen. So, what are the odds I find another one for sale on eBay with an identical signature (though at a different slant)? eBay Item #251302411990 -
Close-ups:
Those guys at PSA/DNA know their stuff!
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09-16-2013, 12:44 PM #2
Re: Muhammad Ali Auto-Pen
Joel -
The 1st may be an auto-pen, but I beg to differ on the second being 'identical'.
1st, the 'hook' at the start of the M is more open in the 2nd auto.
2nd, Muhammad in the 1st one is straight across, in the second (even with the slant), Muhammad appears to have a slight upward arch as it goes across.
Finally, the spacing between the A and L in Ali are different.
They are very similar, but not identical - IMHO - and in my experience, I have never seen an auto pen write at different angles or make even minor variations as I observed above when signing items.
It is possible that the 2nd piece was purposely put into an auto-pen at an angle for the purpose of deception (i.e. making it look different from the 1st piece), but those minor differences in the sig itself show it to either be from a different hand or a different auto-pen machine.
The slant in the 2nd one (and the upward arch in Muhammad) lend it more to having been made by a human hand - maybe not actually Ali's, but a human hand none the less.
Again, just my opinion.
All the best -
Smitty
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09-17-2013, 02:54 AM #3
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09-17-2013, 11:34 AM #4
Re: Muhammad Ali Auto-Pen
Joel -
I didn't attack you, I stated an opinion based on what I see.
I didn't slam your precious PSA/DNA.
So what is your issue? You are so arrogant that you have to be right about anything and everything that you post?
I simply pointed out what anyone who takes 2 seconds to look at those autographs should see.
I guess you have proven that you can't let things go... so you know what you can go and do now.
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09-17-2013, 12:16 PM #5
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Re: Muhammad Ali Auto-Pen
The autograph you purchased looks exactly like 99.9% of TTM autopens.
Not to mention it is consistent with an autopen in having the dot where each part of the auto ends. (After the M, D, I)
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09-17-2013, 12:35 PM #6
Re: Muhammad Ali Auto-Pen
I submit a true side by side comparison of the photos that YOU provided Joel.
The RED underline shows variances in distance between the letters on a straightline.
The RED circle in the first curves of the 'M' shows the variance in their arcs.
The RED angle lines on the H show them almost perpendicular - even though the second signature is at a slant.
The fact that the M, the angle of the H and the Ali all appear almost the same with one sig straight and one at an angle implies that if the angled auto were laid down straight, all of those items would be at a much more severe slant to the right than in the straight auto.
I could go on, but you'll never see the facts. Only what you want to believe.
If I had Corel, I could take out just the sigs and lay them over each other and show that they are NOT identical and you would still say that they are.
I would like OTHER opinions if anyone else care to give any.
I didn't post here because it was your post Joel - I posted here because I don't believe they are from the same hand or the same auto pen.
That said, since you decide to attack my opinion, without any facts, I will now take you to task.
You like to spout off about 'forum rules' this that and the other.
While you might not have come out and said it explicitly, you have implied that the one on eBay now is an Auto Pen as well:
Originally Posted by trsent
Originally Posted by trsentOriginally Posted by forum rule 16
You simply decided that if yours wasn't real, his must not be otherwise and then you took it upon yourself to put his item number out there without ever contacting him 1st.
But not to worry. I took the liberty of contacting the seller and making him aware of this thread so that if he decides to defend himself, he can.
Have a nice day!
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09-17-2013, 12:37 PM #7
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09-17-2013, 03:18 PM #8
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Re: Muhammad Ali Auto-Pen
Smitty, please don't hijack my educational thread with your childish behavior. Auto-Pens are not always identical but close enough for my educational thread to not need your comments. Go back to whatever it is you do to kill time and please avoid my discussions.
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09-17-2013, 04:01 PM #9
Re: Muhammad Ali Auto-Pen
Joel -
1st, I did not hi-jack your thread. I made an observation based on this statement:
Originally Posted by trsent
Originally Posted by xpress34
You had to get nasty:
Originally Posted by trsent
So I showed PROOF that they are not identical.
So now instead of having a rational discussion about the topic with me, you decide to attack me again:
Originally Posted by trsent
You continued:
Originally Posted by trsent
Originally Posted by trsentOriginally Posted by xpress34
Good Day.
- Smitty
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09-17-2013, 04:51 PM #10
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Re: Muhammad Ali Auto-Pen
It doesn't really matter where the card was claimed to have been signed, people lie all the time. If they say IP it gives an uneducated buyer more confidence that it was real than saying it was obtained TTM. It could have even been boughten after the fact or in a collection of mostly IP items.
The card is one of the most common cards he would send back.
I bet you could match your Ali to one of the Ali's found at the link below:
http://www.aliautos.net/forgeries.html