Mears/Lou Lampson/Grey Flannel...Who do you believe?

[kingjammy24]

pudge,

"however.....I am not a rookie when it comes to collecting game worn jerseys"

i didn't mean to imply you were. i said "you don't seem to know much about baseball gamers", which is what you admitted. my confusion still stands regarding why you're in the market for a smoltz and biggio when, in your own words, "This is my first try at collecting baseball gamers".
fyi, many baseball teams sell their jerseys directly or through outfits such as steiner. if you demand impeccable provenance then why not just go through one of the teams/team-exclusive dealers?

re: hockey jerseys
i agree that hockey jerseys are easier to photomatch. i agree that they show more noticeable wear.

"As I have began to notice in baseball.....you just don't have much wear at all."

i agree that many baseball jerseys don't have much wear at all. however, many baseball jerseys are complete garbage that never saw the inside of a clubhouse. all of my jerseys show considerable wear. personally, i wouldn't buy a baseball jersey that didn't show considerable wear and i don't believe that baseball gamers inherantly just don't have much wear at all. it's just more subtle than it is in hockey.

i'm wondering if you're not noticing the wear on some baseball gamers because it isn't as obvious as it is on hockey gamers. a board mark is nice but there's still lots of perfectly valid and valuable wear that is more subtle. with hockey gamers, the wear may be readily apparent in photos. with baseball gamers, it's apparent once you have it in your hands.

"I was just trying to gather intel to be able to help me elimate quickly any jerseys that I may show interest in....because it does appear that I will have to work extra hard to locate photomatches for any baseball jerseys that I may purchase in the future. As I have already learned very quickly on both the Hockey and now baseball front....I can eliminate Lou Lampson from any equation."

eliminate jerseys based on their merits (or lack thereof), not based on who authenticated them. as much disdain as i have for lampson, it'd be ridiculous to think that all of the jerseys he's authenticated are somehow automatically bad. he authenticates for many auction houses and i have to think that some good jerseys have passed through his hands. to me, a lampson-authenticated jersey is simply a jersey that hasn't been examined. as magical as he is, lampson can't turn a good shirt bad. the shirt itself may still be good. it just had the unfortunate experience of passing through his inept fingers. a valid reason to eliminate any lampson-authenticated items would be to help put him out of business.

rather than spending time discussing who's a trustworthy authenticator, i really think your baseball collecting would be best served in learning how to discern wear on gamers and how to discern legit from garbage. you can email me at petrucious2000@yahoo.com and i can let you know a few things to look for in terms of wear on baseball gamers.

by the way, it's inaccurate to compare meigray to lampson/mears/gfc. they're apples and oranges. meigray is a direct reseller from their exclusive team contracts. in this way, they ARE the provenance. when you have meigray certs, everyone knows it means that the item came directly from the team. mears/lampson/gfc isn't provenance. they just authenticate. for the most part, their certs, unlike meigrays', do nothing to establish where the item originally came from.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

i concur with todd.

it's not so much that mears will buy back an item if you point out there's an error. it's more that they'll buy it back if they agree with you. huge difference. what may be a clear error to you may simply be an acceptable aberration to them. as such, i wouldn't put a lot of blind faith into that buyback guarantee.

rudy.

[cohibasmoker]

Rudy and Todd,

I made my statements based on a personal experience. It wasn't hearsay nor was it a he said, she said kind of thing.

HERE'S WHAT HAPPENED:

I bought a jersey from a 3rd party. I thought the jersey was OK and the MEARS LOA only added to my decision in buying the jersey. I had the jersey for some time when I noticed the problem. Since the item had the MEARS LOA, instead of going to the seller, I contacted MEARS through their website and sent them a email outlining the issue I had with the jersey.

MEARS responded quite quicky and they asked if I would send them the jersey? I did so and within 2 weeks, not only did I get my refund, they also reimbursed me my postage.

Again, this experience happened to me!!! Try getting a refund from a auction house that does not offer a MEARS LOA or whose auction rules state: ALL SALES ARE FINAL.

Jim

[hblakewolf]

Jim-
Fellow Forum reader Reid Fontaine purchased a 1977 road Phillies Carlton from Hunt Auctions. Although it was described as original, Reid noticed that the NOB was restored once he received it. He had me contact Bushing, and then Reid took it from there. Bushing/MEARS refunded all of his $$$$ he paid to Hunts. No hoops to jump thorugh and no problem getting a refund.

Although I'm not a believer in LOA's, at least MEARS walks the walk and talks the talk.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[PudgePollyMillerFan]

Great info guys/gals......thanks so much for everyone's input so far. Rudy.....Thanks again for your honesty and input....I appreciate it. The reason I am in the market for players like Biggio, Beckett and Smoltz is because they are some of the top players and record breakers in MLB. Smoltz is from Michigan, Biggio just broke the 3000 hit record...and Beckett is on fire! I don't go small with anything I do.....when I collect, I want the top players and nothing less......I should probably start small...as it would be a helluva lot less expensive etc...but I love the big name players and hometown heroes. I may start calling teams now to see what they have available.....just got the BoSox list and about threw up in my mouth when I saw the prices....wow! Guess I didn't realize the prices on the Yanks and BoSox gamers compared to my Tigers prices...I don't feel so bad paying a couple grand now for a couple of Tigers stars etc. As far as Meigray compared to Mears etc......I understand what you are saying....I was just implying that it sure would make life easier if all sports went to the Meigray system as far as the authentication portion of things was concerned for those who question provinance and the actual wearing of the jersey by the player......I will email you shortly as well regarding what to look for on baseball jerseys for wear etc......it will be very helpful i'm sure and I am always looking forward to learning new things about the hobby and baseball. Thanks again!

[ChrisCavalier]

Jim-
Fellow Forum reader Reid Fontaine purchased a 1977 road Phillies Carlton from Hunt Auctions. Although it was described as original, Reid noticed that the NOB was restored once he received it. He had me contact Bushing, and then Reid took it from there. Bushing/MEARS refunded all of his $$$$ he paid to Hunts. No hoops to jump thorugh and no problem getting a refund.

Although I'm not a believer in LOA's, at least MEARS walks the walk and talks the talk.

Hello Howard,

Unfortunately, I am going to have to disagree with you on this point. While I'm not trying to be negative here, my experience regarding Mears' buyback policy was a complete disappointment. Without rehashing everything here, I will say I was involved in a bat purchase where critical information was not disclosed by Mears that would have had a tremendous impact on my purchase decision. At the time, factory records were not available to the broader collecting community as they are now and I think we clearly demonstrated the problems with Mears' assessment. Here is a link that summarizes the situation for all who would like to read it:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_f...94&postcount=1

Unfortunately, we (there were two other parties also involved in the purchase) are now in possession of a bat that we know is inconsistent with Tris Speaker's ordering patterns but we have been told the authenticator's opinion stands. Thus, if we would like to seek any form of remuneration we will need to go to court in Wisconsin. Personally, I don't have the time to do this right now but it appears to be the only recourse that is now available. While I think Mears may now be trying to be more diligent in their authentications, that isn't going to help me with the bat I have in my possession. I think this is a very unfortunate situation and one that I wouldn't wish on anyone. As such, I would agree that collectors should not rely on buyback policies but be more proactive in the purchasing process.

Along those lines, I believe GUU has done a number of things in the hobby to help collectors get the information they need PRIOR to making a purchase. To me, that information may include opinions from authenticators but those opinions should be viewed as data points and not absolutes. Further, GUU has developed an auction system that we believe will take things to another level by allowing collectors more ways to get information in the purchasing process. For those who haven't read it yet, here is a link to an article that appeared in SCD regarding what we are doing:

'Next Generation' Auction.pdf

As is stated in the article, there should never be a situation in GUU’s auctions where someone buys an item without fully being aware of what they are buying. The Game Used Universe system itself will make sure of it. If a collector is unsure of something, all they need to do is ask. It is now up to collectors to make sure they use the system so they have the questions answered they need before making their purchases.

Sincerely,
Chris

[hblakewolf]

Chris-
Sorry to hear that your experience with MEARS was not similar to that of Reid's or those of other Forum readers who received a complete refund, with minimal effort.

What I have a hard time believing is your statement, "Thus, if we would like to seek any form of remuneration we will need to go to court in Wisconsin. Personally, I don't have the time to do this right now but it appears to be the only recourse that is now available"

You mean to tell me that you feel you were "duped" by MEARS, and don't plan to take any legal action? Although you may be busy, how about your other two partners? Can they possibly find a few minutes from their busy schedules? Chris, we're not talking about chump change here, correct? You and your partners can't find the time to work with a lawyer in Wisconsin? When I sued General Electric in Washington State, I communicated through fax, email and phone, and then flew from New Jersey to the West Coast the day before the case was to be heard. We settled out of court, and I was reimbursed for all of my expenses as part of the settlement.

We're all too familiar with the infamous green Ripken jersey, however, owner Dan Derlith continues to cry on everyone’s shoulder and take no further action, either-none! Here’s a collector who can easily provide evidence in a court of law that he spent well over $4,000. for a fake St. Pat’s jersey, however, has never taken any legal action to recoup his cost. Rather, he’ll tell anyone and everyone about how Lampson wrote a LOA on a jersey style that was never used.

We saw first hand on the People's Court how easy it was to prove that another Ripken jersey from Grey Flannel was completely fake. This was a television court for goodness sake!

Why do you and others in this hobby allow those who you feel have wronged you allow them to get away with it? Either take legal action or face the facts that you must live with your purchase, suck up the loss and forever keep quiet.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[G1X]

Probably none of us like the thoughts of taking legal action, especially in a hobby that supposed to be fun. However, to sit and do nothing other than complain loudly about being jilted in a transaction will not resolve the issue. When all else fails, either get legal, get political, or get law enforcement involved - or else get nothing.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

[ChrisCavalier]

Probably none of us like the thoughts of taking legal action, especially in a hobby that supposed to be fun. However, to sit and do nothing other than complain loudly about being jilted in a transaction will not resolve the issue. When all else fails, either get legal, get political, or get law enforcement involved - or else get nothing.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

Hello Howard and Mark,

Actually my post was made to provide perspective regarding the potential reliance of buyback policies in the current system of how items are transacted (a topic brought up in this thread). It was not to "complain loudly about being jilted" but rather explain an actual experience to demonstrate the need for fully understanding what you are doing before you buy an item (a lesson I had to learn the hard way). As far as doing something about the situation, I have actually been spending my time helping build a website and auction system dedicated to helping the collector and improving the way items are currently transacted in the industry. In fact, it is a system that will help protect buyers from the problems that created my current situation to begin with.

You are right, I don't find the idea of having to go to court to resolve something that I believe could have (and should have) been resolved outside of the legal system at all appealing. I also understand that is something I may have to do in the future. However, as for right now I find it extremely rewarding to focus on doing something positive for all collectors and working diligently with people of high integrity to create a system that will protect others from the situation I currently find myself in. I am proud to say that I think GUU has already been a driving force that is helping change the hobby for the better. I also believe we will continue to improve the industry in the future as a result of all the work we are doing now.

On a related note, I would also like to address Howard's comment that claimed I felt we were "duped" by Mears. To me "duped" implies something that involved a knowing and malicious intent. We said all along throughout the process that we chose to believe there was simply an error involved in the authentication of the item and not that we were "duped". Again, I believe our situation shows the risks of blindly following the opinions of a few without doing your own due diligence. I have learned that lesson first hand and know that collectors now can make more informed decisions about items they purchase through the mechanisms available on GUU. I also believe that choice to focus on creating what we have for collectors means much more to the collecting community than anything else I could have done.

Sincerely,
Chris

[G1X]

Chris,

I wasn't intending to criticize your situation (you should be well aware of that fact from our off-line conversations). With this forum, you have chosen to get "political" about the situation by becoming involved with this Forum. I chose the legal path in my bad experience. It worked well for me, just as taking "political" action or involving law enforcement can work well.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange