Biggest HOF Snub

[David]

I think it's hard to call it a snub when a player is still eligible and could very well be elected in in the near future. A few years ago people said Bruce Sutter was snubbed and he now resides in the HOF. Gossage was "snubbed" and is a Hall of Famer. Whether you're voted in in year 1 or year 7, you're just as much a Hall of Famer. In fact, you could field a heck of a team from people not elected in their first years (Anyone want Joe DiMaggio or Jimmie Foxx on their fantasy team?)

[chakes89]

Dave Concepcion

If Ozzie Smith and Phil Rizzuto are HOFers, Dave Concecpcion is

[Birdbats]

Don't know if I'd call it the biggest snub, but Ted Simmons' lack of support is a major head scratcher. When you look at his numbers compared to catchers who already are in the HOF, it's hard to believe he didn't get enough votes to even remain on the ballot. Simmons ranks in the top 5 among catchers in 15 categories and in the top 10 in 17 categories. He excelled in reaching base, driving in runs and getting extra base hits... he was a switch hitter... and while he wasn't in Bench's class defensively, his fielding percentage of .987 was comparable to Fisk, Dickey and Campanella and better than the MLB average during Simmons' career. It'll be interesting to see what the veteran's committee does with Simmons. I wonder if anyone who didn't pull 5% of the writer's vote ever got elected by the vets?

Here's a good article that makes Ted's case: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...61/ai_88575158

HOW TED SIMMONS RATES WITH HALL OF FAME CATCHERS

RUNS

Carlton Fisk 1,276
Yogi Berra 1,175
Buck Ewing 1,118
Johnny Bench 1,091
Ted Simmons 1,074
Mickey Cochrane 1,041
Bill Dickey 930
Gabby Hartnett 867
Rick Ferrell 687
Roger Bresnahan 684
Roy Campanella 627
Ernie Lombardi 601
Ray Schalk 579

HITS

Ted Simmons 2,472
Carlton Fisk 2,356
Yogi Berra 2,150
Johnny Bench 2,048
Bill Dickey 1,969
Gabby Hartnett 1,912
Ernie Lombardi 1,792
Rick Ferrell 1,692
Buck Ewing 1,663
Mickey Cochrane 1,652
Ray Schalk 1,345
Roger Bresnahan 1,251
Roy Campanella 1,161

DOUBLES

Ted Simmons 483
Carlton Fisk 421
Gabby Hartnett 396
Johnny Bench 381
Bill Dickey 343
Mickey Cochrane 333
Rick Ferrell 324
Yogi Berra 321
Ernie Lombardi 277
Buck Ewing 237
Roger Bresnahan 222
Ray Schalk 199
Roy Companella 178

HOME RUNS

Johnny Bench 389
Carlton Fisk 376
Yogi Berra 358
Ted Simmons 248
Roy Campanella 242
Gabby Hartnett 236
Bill Dickey 202
Ernie Lombardi 190
Mickey Cochrane 119
Buck Ewing 66
Rick Ferrell 28
Roger Bresnahan 26
Ray Schalk 12

RBI

Yogi Berra 1,430
Ted Simmons 1,389
Carlton Fisk 1,386
Johnny Bench 1,376
Bill Dickey 1,209
Gabby Hartnett 1,179
Ernie Lombardi 990
Buck Ewing 883
Roy Campanella 856
Mickey Cochrane 832
Rick Ferrell 734
Ray Schalk 596
Roger Bresnahan 531

BATTING AVERAGE

Mickey Cochrane .320
Bill Dickey .313
Ernie Lombardi .306
Buck Ewing .303
Gabby Hartnett .297
Ted Simmons .285
Yogi Berra .285
Rick Ferrell .281
Roger Bresnahan .279
Roy Campanella .276
Carlton Fisk .269
Johnny Bench .267
Ray Schalk .253

GAMES CAUGHT

Carlton Fisk 2,226
Rick Ferrell 1,806
Gabby Hartnett 1,793
Ted Simmons 1,771
Johnny Bench 1,742
Ray Schalk 1,727
Bill Dickey 1,708
Yogi Berra 1,699
Ernie Lombardi 1,544
Mickey Cochrane 1,451
Roy Campanella 1,183
Roger Bresnahan 974
Buck Ewing 636

FIELDING AVG. AS CATCHER

Listed are each catcher's career
fielding average (FA) as a catcher
and the average fielding percentage
for catchers during his
career--League Fielding Percentage
(LPCT)

Catcher FA LPCT

Johnny Bench .990 .987
Yogi Berra .989 .987
Bill Dickey .988 .982
Roy Campanella .988 .984
Carlton Fisk .988 .986
Ted Simmons .987 .986
Mickey Cochrane .985 .980
Rick Ferrell .984 .982
Gabby Hartnett .984 .978
Ray Schalk .981 .971
Ernie Lombardi .979 .980
Roger Bresnahan .971 .968
Buck Ewing .931 .906

[harpt]

Jeff,

As you know, I couldn't agree more.

[earlywynnfan]

Dave Concepcion

If Ozzie Smith and Phil Rizzuto are HOFers, Dave Concecpcion is

The problem with that mentality is it lets all kinds of people in. We can go on forever with these type of comparisons. If Catfish Hunter is a HOFer, so is Luis Tiant. If Rube Marquard is a HOFer, so is Mel Harder. If Lefty Gomez is a HOFer, so is Carl Mays. Or, to link to another thread, if Kirby Puckett is a HOFer, so is Don Mattingly.

We can't use past mistakes as reasons to put in more mistakes, even if the second group is better than the first.

Instead of comparing someone on the outside to someone on the inside, I think you need to just focus on the outside player: Was he the best at his position for his generation? Did he revolutionize his position? Was he elite??

Rice and Belle were the most feared sluggers of their time. Blyleven won more games than most, had a fantastic ERA, and had one of the best curveballs ever. Sutter and Gossage, when the came in, the game was over! (Gossage actually hung on too long, fostering feelings like the Cubs fan has.) Minnie Minoso could beat you with a very rare (for the era) power and speed combination, and that's after racism took at least a half dozen years off his career. If Rickey Henderson took up football, Tim Raines would be known as the all-time greatest baserunner.

Ken

[Neely8]

I think it is ludicrous that Pete Rose is not in the HOF when we have juice heads breaking records who will probably get in. At least everything he did on the field was legit.

[nomarmauerfan]

I think it gets too confusing to look at overall stats. Then, its easy to ask why so and so is in, and why so and so isn't (if Puckett's in, why not Mattingly, Fisk, why not Simmons). I think a better way to look at it is who were the top players of the decade. Who are the best position players of the 80's, 90's, and 2000's? And, are they in. If they're on that list, then they were the best player at their position for a 10-year period. To me, that warrants the HOF. We can certainly have some great discussions on guys that comprise the All-Decade teams.

Mike

[suave1477]

Jeff I found these numbers very interesting and as a Posada fan I looked at his numbers and compared them to the players you have listed and it seems Posada comes in the middle of the players lists in just about every category. It makes me wonder if he will get in the hof????
One thing that does work in his favor is he is still playing so it gives him sometime to put up some more numbers to pass some players on these lists. Plus he has 4 rings and a 4 x all star hope those help.

Don't know if I'd call it the biggest snub, but Ted Simmons' lack of support is a major head scratcher. When you look at his numbers compared to catchers who already are in the HOF, it's hard to believe he didn't get enough votes to even remain on the ballot. Simmons ranks in the top 5 among catchers in 15 categories and in the top 10 in 17 categories. He excelled in reaching base, driving in runs and getting extra base hits... he was a switch hitter... and while he wasn't in Bench's class defensively, his fielding percentage of .987 was comparable to Fisk, Dickey and Campanella and better than the MLB average during Simmons' career. It'll be interesting to see what the veteran's committee does with Simmons. I wonder if anyone who didn't pull 5% of the writer's vote ever got elected by the vets?

Here's a good article that makes Ted's case: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...61/ai_88575158

HOW TED SIMMONS RATES WITH HALL OF FAME CATCHERS

RUNS

Carlton Fisk 1,276
Yogi Berra 1,175
Buck Ewing 1,118
Johnny Bench 1,091
Ted Simmons 1,074
Mickey Cochrane 1,041
Bill Dickey 930
Gabby Hartnett 867
Rick Ferrell 687
Roger Bresnahan 684
Roy Campanella 627
Ernie Lombardi 601
Ray Schalk 579

HITS

Ted Simmons 2,472
Carlton Fisk 2,356
Yogi Berra 2,150
Johnny Bench 2,048
Bill Dickey 1,969
Gabby Hartnett 1,912
Ernie Lombardi 1,792
Rick Ferrell 1,692
Buck Ewing 1,663
Mickey Cochrane 1,652
Ray Schalk 1,345
Roger Bresnahan 1,251
Roy Campanella 1,161

DOUBLES

Ted Simmons 483
Carlton Fisk 421
Gabby Hartnett 396
Johnny Bench 381
Bill Dickey 343
Mickey Cochrane 333
Rick Ferrell 324
Yogi Berra 321
Ernie Lombardi 277
Buck Ewing 237
Roger Bresnahan 222
Ray Schalk 199
Roy Companella 178

HOME RUNS

Johnny Bench 389
Carlton Fisk 376
Yogi Berra 358
Ted Simmons 248
Roy Campanella 242
Gabby Hartnett 236
Bill Dickey 202
Ernie Lombardi 190
Mickey Cochrane 119
Buck Ewing 66
Rick Ferrell 28
Roger Bresnahan 26
Ray Schalk 12

RBI

Yogi Berra 1,430
Ted Simmons 1,389
Carlton Fisk 1,386
Johnny Bench 1,376
Bill Dickey 1,209
Gabby Hartnett 1,179
Ernie Lombardi 990
Buck Ewing 883
Roy Campanella 856
Mickey Cochrane 832
Rick Ferrell 734
Ray Schalk 596
Roger Bresnahan 531

BATTING AVERAGE

Mickey Cochrane .320
Bill Dickey .313
Ernie Lombardi .306
Buck Ewing .303
Gabby Hartnett .297
Ted Simmons .285
Yogi Berra .285
Rick Ferrell .281
Roger Bresnahan .279
Roy Campanella .276
Carlton Fisk .269
Johnny Bench .267
Ray Schalk .253

GAMES CAUGHT

Carlton Fisk 2,226
Rick Ferrell 1,806
Gabby Hartnett 1,793
Ted Simmons 1,771
Johnny Bench 1,742
Ray Schalk 1,727
Bill Dickey 1,708
Yogi Berra 1,699
Ernie Lombardi 1,544
Mickey Cochrane 1,451
Roy Campanella 1,183
Roger Bresnahan 974
Buck Ewing 636

FIELDING AVG. AS CATCHER

Listed are each catcher's career
fielding average (FA) as a catcher
and the average fielding percentage
for catchers during his
career--League Fielding Percentage
(LPCT)

Catcher FA LPCT

Johnny Bench .990 .987
Yogi Berra .989 .987
Bill Dickey .988 .982
Roy Campanella .988 .984
Carlton Fisk .988 .986
Ted Simmons .987 .986
Mickey Cochrane .985 .980
Rick Ferrell .984 .982
Gabby Hartnett .984 .978
Ray Schalk .981 .971
Ernie Lombardi .979 .980
Roger Bresnahan .971 .968
Buck Ewing .931 .906

[Vintagedeputy]

Suave,

I'm a big Posada fan too and at age 37, he just had his best season to date. Like you, I inserted him in the list to see where he falls. Pretty neat stuff!


Jim


RUNS

Carlton Fisk 1,276
Yogi Berra 1,175
Buck Ewing 1,118
Johnny Bench 1,091
Ted Simmons 1,074
Mickey Cochrane 1,041
Bill Dickey 930
Gabby Hartnett 867
POSADA 744
Rick Ferrell 687
Roger Bresnahan 684
Roy Campanella 627
Ernie Lombardi 601
Ray Schalk 579

HITS

Ted Simmons 2,472
Carlton Fisk 2,356
Yogi Berra 2,150
Johnny Bench 2,048
Bill Dickey 1,969
Gabby Hartnett 1,912
Ernie Lombardi 1,792
Rick Ferrell 1,692
Buck Ewing 1,663
Mickey Cochrane 1,652
Ray Schalk 1,345
POSADA 1334
Roger Bresnahan 1,251
Roy Campanella 1,161

DOUBLES

Ted Simmons 483
Carlton Fisk 421
Gabby Hartnett 396
Johnny Bench 381
Bill Dickey 343
Mickey Cochrane 333
Rick Ferrell 324
Yogi Berra 321
POSADA 304
Ernie Lombardi 277
Buck Ewing 237
Roger Bresnahan 222
Ray Schalk 199
Roy Companella 178

HOME RUNS

Johnny Bench 389
Carlton Fisk 376
Yogi Berra 358
Ted Simmons 248
Roy Campanella 242
Gabby Hartnett 236
POSADA 218
Bill Dickey 202
Ernie Lombardi 190
Mickey Cochrane 119
Buck Ewing 66
Rick Ferrell 28
Roger Bresnahan 26
Ray Schalk 12

RBI

Yogi Berra 1,430
Ted Simmons 1,389
Carlton Fisk 1,386
Johnny Bench 1,376
Bill Dickey 1,209
Gabby Hartnett 1,179
Ernie Lombardi 990
Buck Ewing 883
POSADA 861
Roy Campanella 856
Mickey Cochrane 832
Rick Ferrell 734
Ray Schalk 596
Roger Bresnahan 531

BATTING AVERAGE

Mickey Cochrane .320
Bill Dickey .313
Ernie Lombardi .306
Buck Ewing .303
Gabby Hartnett .297
Ted Simmons .285
Yogi Berra .285
Rick Ferrell .281
Roger Bresnahan .279
POSADA 277
Roy Campanella .276
Carlton Fisk .269
Johnny Bench .267
Ray Schalk .253

GAMES CAUGHT

Carlton Fisk 2,226
Rick Ferrell 1,806
Gabby Hartnett 1,793
Ted Simmons 1,771
Johnny Bench 1,742
Ray Schalk 1,727
Bill Dickey 1,708
Yogi Berra 1,699
Ernie Lombardi 1,544
Mickey Cochrane 1,451
POSADA 1,360
Roy Campanella 1,183
Roger Bresnahan 974
Buck Ewing 636

FIELDING AVG. AS CATCHER

Listed are each catcher's career
fielding average (FA) as a catcher
and the average fielding percentage
for catchers during his
career--League Fielding Percentage
(LPCT)

Catcher FA LPCT

POSADA .992 / LPCT ?
Johnny Bench .990 .987
Yogi Berra .989 .987
Bill Dickey .988 .982
Roy Campanella .988 .984
Carlton Fisk .988 .986
Ted Simmons .987 .986
Mickey Cochrane .985 .980
Rick Ferrell .984 .982
Gabby Hartnett .984 .978
Ray Schalk .981 .971
Ernie Lombardi .979 .980
Roger Bresnahan .971 .968
Buck Ewing .931 .906

[suave1477]

Vintage even though he had his best season, he can still add a bit more within 3 years to creep a couple of spots on some of those lists.