Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

[MichaelofSF]

Imagine if all 32 NFL teams had contracts with dealers to distribute their unwashed used jerseys. Imagine if all of these jerseys came with team letters with serial numbers on the letter and on the jersey.

If this were the standard there would be no reason to buy a back door/"impeccable team source" jerseys. There would be no reason to buy an undocumented jersey because there would be so many documented jerseys out there. The premium we now pay for documentation (NFL auctions/JO Sports/GUU store) would possibly be less too because this would now be standard. I currently am willing to pay more for a jersey from one of these places because they are easy to photomatch so I know the jersey I buy is good. If I knew all jerseys on the market were good, this premium would no longer exist. If all jerseys were documented, then jerseys without documentation couldn't exist as much as they do today.

Would there still be some of these bad jerseys? Sure, there will always be thiefs and suckers. Would it be easier to catch these criminals? Yes because the smarter criminals would find a different area for their thievery leaving the dumber ones to be caught. Use can be faked, team letters without specificity can be faked/switched.

I think MeiGray/JO sports/GUU store are a leap in the right direction. I know the prices are higher right now but the market will dictate what sells and what doesn't. If they become the standard, the supply of good jerseys will be higher, the premium we pay for documentation will go down and prices will have to come down (think Steiner).

Team letters done properly should be demanded going forward not because I need it to know a jersey is good, but to make less room for the bad jerseys.

[MichaelofSF]

typo thiefs = thieves

[JETEFAN]

Nate,

Couldn't agree with you more, the "ONLY" thing team exclusive distributorship does is create monopolies..... of course if I had an exclusive I would tell the world that you must have the letter !!! If one thing Steiner has done besides ruin the market for Yankees items is to show everyone that the "Steiner letter" does not guarantee the item is what they say it is. I have seen tons of mistakes on their part.. Do your own homework, I don't need a letter from Gerneral Motors to tell me the car I am looking at is a Camaro !!!! Back door, front door or side door, there will ALWAYS be more than 1 source for legit gamers.!!!!

George

[jppopma]

These letters and safeguards are all good to us here, but in reality I'm not sure how much it will help elimiate the fake jerseys out there. It will certainly slow it down. However, sadly there are too many people out there that are not informed and will by these beyond fake jerseys that show up on ebay and elsewhere.

I guess we should appreciate any step, no matter how large or small, that we can take to eliminating the problems in our hobby. Hopefully the FBI investigation will get alot of press and in turn educate people about what is out there (but not so much as to affect our legit item's prices or scare people away from out hobby).

[suave1477]

With all due respect Chris, in cutting your deal with the Raiders to include such LOA paperwork, you have a pretty clear vested financial interest in magnifying the value of such while creating worries about items lacking what you have to offer. Your post is of course self promotional and not so thinly veiled. Your sandbox, your rules, granted - no complaints, just the observation.

Should such be a plus? Sure. But I do find it pretty likely that players take jerseys home, as do other personnel with adequate opportunity or authority where the checks and balances in place don't prevent same.

Is a team LOA a plus? Certainly, particularly if tied to the item through photos and holograms, but very often those team LOA's are just letterhead that can be matched to any item. Hopefully your procedures are or will be tighter.

I think this was a great statement by this member.

I would also like to add.

Chris I would also like to say your saying everything is being accounted for the front offices, equipment managers, and who ever else on these staffs are keep an eye on everything. But one thing you left out.........

WHAT ABOUT THE PLAYER HIMSELF???

Its not like we know of any Home Run Hitter that plays for a team in New York thats sells his own stuff out the back door????????

So what would stop a NFL Player for ordering a couple of his own jerseys on the side and do what he wants with them whether it be to wear them and give them away to his family or for sale for profit???

Who's stopping the player????

[skyking26]

I dont know about you guys, but I learned quite a bit with GUU's auction of Rollie Fingers glove(with letter),the Arod bat with a letter signed by him, and the items going on with Favre.

If you want a letter, let me know, I can get one for you. Is it comforting? Sure, but it doesnt mean the item is what it is.

So are you asking our opinion based on the agreements you have made with NFL teams? If so, wouldnt that be for promotional use? Lets face it folks, this site is for profit now, nothing more, nothing less.

Nate, I still learn and share at this site. What I do not understand is the feeling amongst many that this site or any other can operate for free?? Nothing is for free in life, other than advise, and many chrage for that as well!

[kingjammy24]

many great points made so far. personally, i don't think the issue here is whether legit items exist without team paperwork. obviously they do, in the same way that there are also items with team paperwork that aren't what they're purported to be. rather, i think the real issue is whether collectors, in the face of "exclusive team deals", should limit themselves only to items with team provenance. that is, if legit items exist with provenance and without then why choose the ones without? sure mark hayne's jerseys are good but if you could purchase the same jerseys with team paperwork then isn't that a more attractive option? i see this as a "provenance vs no provenance" issue and to that end, i think there's merit in chris' argument. while provenance is no guarantee, i'd think at a minimum it's preferable to not having any provenance. (and saying "impeccable team source" is tantamount to having no provenance).

where i disagree is with chris' estimations of legit jerseys leaving via unofficial channels. obviously there are fewer than evidenced by ebay but i don't think things are as airtight as seems to be implied here. look at steiner's "exclusive" deal with the red sox. lowell, beckett, papelbon, and pedroia have all legitimately offered many of their jerseys through PMI. manny took most of his from the sox and dodgers as well. that's some "exclusive" contract when notable players on the team are able to strike individual contracts with competing firms and market their jerseys through those firms. time and time again i've seen legit shirts escape "exclusive" deals via a myriad of ways and reasons. i've yet to see a truly, 100% iron-clad exclusive deal where barely a single shirt escapes. chris, you address this issue by saying you've "..personally met with both the marketing and operations people from the Raiders...they are all..highly ethical...the idea that these jerseys are/will be “getting out the back door” is just not true. While I don’t want to take the liberty of speaking for others, I can tell you the same is also likely true for the Cowboys, Bears, Vikings and Redskins."

things won't be flowing out the back because you've met with some raider folks and they struck you as highly ethical? if they were unethical, would they have come out and admitted it to you? or were you able to somehow conclusively suss out such highly private information? if bernie madoff gained enough trust to manage $50 billion and play every single one of his investors, many of them highly intelligent, and the SEC for fools, then i'm guessing that it'd be possible for the raiders equipment staff to pull one over on chris cavalier.

"While certainly there may be some instances where players may want to keep their jerseys or something along those lines, how many jerseys can there really be outside the ones going through the marketing companies when the marketing company has a deal with the team?"

lots. if each of the 53 members of the raiders kept only 3 of their jerseys from the 2008 regular season, that'd be 159 legit gamers from 2008 alone that wouldn't be from JO Sports. if your deal allows players to keep some of their shirts, as the steiner/red sox deal does, then all you need is a couple of ramirezs and ortizs to take the majority of their shirts and market them privately. if jamarcus russell pulls a manny ramirez and takes most of his shirts, what will JO Sports do then? claim his shirts aren't legit because they don't come from JO Sports?

"In talking with the Raiders, I was able to find out that there had only been one legitimate JaMarcus Russell game used jersey previously ever offered to the secondary market.."

you were told there was only one legitimate one released. this may be different than how many were actually released. after all, if some were released and shouldn't have been, those probably wouldn't have been disclosed to you. anyway, did the number given include any jerseys that jamarcus took and resold himself/privately?

anyway, chris asked a blanket question and i don't think there's a blanket answer. i think every situation ought to be evaluated on its own merits. each person is different, each team is different, each company is different. all team provenance is not created equal. the JO Sports deals will be evaluated based on the quality of their offerings, not simply on their provenance. i think solid provenance is definitely a good thing. i don't think it's infallible. i don't believe things will be as airtight as chris implies. i think it definitely behooves JO Sports' bottomline for people to believe things are completely airtight; that it's as black and white as "if it's from us, it's legit, if it's not from us, it's not legit". as i said, i've seen too many athletes take their own shirts (even going so far as to fool team/league staff), shirts taken by team staff, taken by visting VIPs, etc to believe the whole thing can be airtight.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

will the JO Sports/Raiders deal be as exclusive as the Steiner/Red Sox deal?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=130265437545

http://www.steinersports.com/ssm/con...00810451510025

or will the players determine that? if the contract enables players to take their jerseys, then they'll take them and market them wherever it's most profitable to them personally thereby rendering your agreement as no longer exclusive.

"There are few teams in sports with the storied history of the Boston Red Sox and Fenway Park. Developing an exclusive collectibles series is an exciting opportunity,” said Steiner Sports CEO Brandon Steiner. The deals are the latest of Steiner’s exclusive relationships with specific teams or universities."

rudy.

[allstarsplus]

many great points made so far.

i think solid provenance is definitely a good thing. i don't think it's infallible. i don't believe things will be as airtight as chris implies. i think it definitely behooves JO Sports' bottomline for people to believe things are completely airtight; that it's as black and white as "if it's from us, it's legit, if it's not from us, it's not legit". as i said, i've seen too many athletes take their own shirts (even going so far as to fool team/league staff), shirts taken by team staff, taken by visting VIPs, etc to believe the whole thing can be airtight.

rudy.

Rudy - I agree.

Some may think that JO gets all of the Redskins jerseys which I don't think that may be correct as Comcast Sports has advertised significant Redskins jerseys from this year and then there is the Redskins Visa card promotion where you can get game used jerseys and then you have players that have jerseys.

Also to mention in these theories is whether the players are changing jerseys at Halftime.

Anyway, I think JO is doing an admirable job and their sales appear to be good.

I wish Chris much luck in the new store.

[allstarsplus]

if the contract enables players to take their jerseys, then they'll take them and market them wherever it's most profitable to them personally thereby rendering your agreement as no longer exclusive.


rudy.

Rudy - As an agent said to me about Manny and his jerseys, "Is the team going to send him to the Minors for taking his jerseys?"

Let's face it, many players take liberties with their jerseys and equipment. It may not be right, but it happens all of the time.

In football, you had Brett Favre, Michael Vick, and others with their own GU deals. Peyton Manning jerseys were all over the internet.