Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[1986&2004Bosox]

King Lon spent maybe 20 minutes responding and a total of four emails.

You want me to send you the exact email where Lon state's that MEARS knows of the borderless tag issue and has chose to ignore it?

Where he states that borderless and wrong size are tell tale signs to him of a custom? Now Lon changes his stance and say's customs had blue tags as well?

Where he sates that 1974 was a transation year and that 1975 blue borders were in full production? What does full production mean to you?

Come on King you want to defend Lon fine but don't twist his point, don't say that full production does not mean that blue border shirts accoarding to Mr. Lewis are the way shirts should be 1975 to pre 80ties.

McAuliffe went out of business but since it was a product of Stall & Dean as Mr. Lewis has pointed out and Stall & Dean is still around why not start there for proof of these custom orders?

King good luck in your collecting, keep defending Mr. Lewis thats great that he has your support.

He has put a theory out there with numerous flaws and still I am the bad guy. All I have done is point out the contradictions he has made in his statements.

Now you Rudy want to get in to symantics of what full production means? Also if a player had 3 home and road shirts that means on average every 27 games they got a new jersey.

So if these customs were being bought to be worn to games and in softball leagues, and by high schools don't you think a jersey made out of the same material with the same tagging that was not a major league gamer would be destroyed after 32 years? That the guy, girl, kid wearing it would have sent it thru the wash more times than a major league gamer would have been washed?

That unlike a game jersey that was worn by a player that played a full season some where between 27 times if they had 3 shirts home and raod and swithched them out after an equal number of game or 81 if they wore the same shirt the whole season.

Don't you think that those jerseys would be pounded tags and letters falling off, ripped torn etc? But these so called custom, retail, aftermarket jerseys seem to be in perfect condition.

What about a shirt that has no alteration of any kind that has pounded,fadded lettering for team name and numbers but perfect crisp tagging? What determanation do you make on a jersey like that?

Look Lon could be the greatest guy in the world but I will not sit around and let him state one thing in one post and an email and another elsewhere.

All I have asked for from the start is proof of retail orders which I have said take as long as you would like to gather, but don't talk about a 1971 tagged Indians jersey in the Henderson guide and state it is a 1987 shirt as your proof. Right now all I would like for Mr. Lewis to do is clarify his position on the tagging issue, which I have outlined in a previous post.

It is an easy request.

[iceman13]

This reminds me of another thread that involved 1986&2004Bosox, posting there as Bubba77, on a different game used website regarding some altered Bruins jerseys:

http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/u...c;f=1;t=008686

It's probably worth the full read. I hate to stir the pot with this (I never get involved in these sorts of disputes) but I couldn't stand back and watch him continue to slam Rudy & Lon knowing this isn't the first time he's caused an issue. After all isn't this site about helping other GU collectors avoid pitfalls?

Remember, it's a relatively small hobby and people know each other.

Back to lurking.

The infamous Custom Crafted specials

[kingjammy24]

"Where he states that borderless and wrong size are tell tale signs to him of a custom? Now Lon changes his stance and say's customs had blue tags as well?"

lon stated that borderless and wrong size are tell tale signs of a custom. show me where he said borderless and wrong size are the ONLY tell-tale signs of a custom. how is it a change in stance if lon adds information but doesn't modify his original point? if i say "robbery is a crime" and then later i add "and so is murder" am i changing my original stance that robbery is a crime? changing his stance would involve lon saying "ok i was wrong, borderless and wrong size aren't signs of a custom". he simply said 1 thing and then later added information that didn't contradict his original statement.

"Come on King you want to defend Lon fine but don't twist his point, don't say that full production does not mean that blue border shirts accoarding to Mr. Lewis are the way shirts should be 1975 to pre 80ties."

wouldn't twisting his point be exactly what you're doing? that is, affixing your own meaning to "full production"? you accused lon of stating that "all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border". please show me where he said those exact words. you've accused him of saying that and yet i can't find any statement from him that says exactly that.

the truth is i don't know what lon meant by "full production" but unlike you, i wouldn't automatically assume the meaning. he said "full production" and you immediately affix your own interpretation and then accuse others of twisting words?

had i been in your shoes, instead of jumping the gun and assuming what he meant, my first reply to him would've been "lon, when you say "full production" does this mean that mcauliffe never used any borderless tags from '75-'79?". i would've had the common sense to ask lon to clarify his statement rather than assuming what he meant. "full production" is vague.
maybe lon is guilty of being somewhat vague in his original statement but that doesn't get you off the hook for pretending to know what he meant.

"Stall & Dean is still around why not start there for proof of these custom orders?"

excellent question. please let us know what you find out. after all, it's you selling this shirt, not lon or i. i'm just discussing this for interests sake. you're actually making money off this thing. its you who's responsible for doing everything you can to ensure its legitimacy. by the way, there's no reason i should wait 30 days for your results, especially in this age of google and skype. i expect your findings tomorrow. if you don't have them by tomorrow, i can safely assume that you found the records, didn't like what you saw and chose to hide it. don't tell me otherwise because i've got the ability to infer whatever i like. if you won't let me infer things, then i'll accuse you of changing your stance and twisting words.

"All I have done is point out the contradictions he has made in his statements."

no, all if you've done is misinterpret his words and then hold him to your misinterpretations. you keep saying that lon made the "statement that all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border" but i can't find any such statement. the specific statement you accused lon of making doesn't actually exist does it? the only thing that exists is lon stating they were "in full production". to you they're one in the same.

"Now you Rudy want to get in to symantics of what full production means?"

that's what this entire thing centers around! that's the actual phrase that caused all this and to you it's just semantics. "full production" is a vague term. how on earth do you purport to know exactly what lon meant and didn't mean by it if you didn't seek clarification on it? how do you purport to know exactly what "full production" means when i don't know exactly what lon meant? are you a mind-reader? or just someone who assumes without asking for clarification?

"Don't you think that those jerseys would be pounded tags and letters falling off, ripped torn etc? But these so called custom, retail, aftermarket jerseys seem to be in perfect condition."

assuming 100% of all the customs ordered were worn to death. assuming that no fans in boston ever ordered customs of their hometown heroes like yaz, lynn, fisk, and rice in order to hang in their dens for 20 years. in 1993, i ordered a retail canseco to be made up. i didn't order it from a store. i ordered it from a russell distributor 3000 miles away. i wore it for a total of 3 or 4 times, still have it, and it's in mint condition. i don't even think i've ever even washed it.

rudy.

[lund6771]

Bosox..

You've posted that you have 20+_ years of hobby experience and brokered major deals between dealers and collectors

If that's the case, then why did you post in the Gameworn forum that you are a newbie to collecting?...

Also in the gameworn.net forum you again were CLEARLY lying about the Bruins jerseys...Talking the jerseys up as the second coming of Christ, and also talking about sending pictures, and you didn't even have them yet?

Rabid is definitely the right word

[kingjammy24]

This reminds me of another thread that involved 1986&2004Bosox, posting there as Bubba77, on a different game used website regarding some altered Bruins jerseys:

http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/u...c;f=1;t=008686

in a private mail sent several days ago, mark weimerskirch was discussing this thread and referenced eric by his full name, "eric atkinson". the individual named on gameworn.net is also eric atkinson. i have to think they're the same person.

some gems from eric the guy who's got "25 yrs in the hobby". enjoy:
-----------------------------------------------------------
posted January 09, 2004

- "If he is an expert in the hobby WHY WOULKD HE CALL FAKES GAME ISSUE?"

- "Also what is the difference between game issue and game worn? I am a novice."

- "Was i trying to flip before i owned yes and is that wrong????????"

- "Well you know what auction houses sell BAD crap all day long. Lelands pulls stuff all the time from auction, so does ever other major auction house because errors are made"
----------------------------------------------------------

comments he made recently here:

"I am a newbie with 25 years of collecting.. who has brokered 6 figure deals between private collectors and prominent dealers, I have brought to market some amazing private collections and items"

"..wouldn't major auction houses know this and not make the same mistake for years?"

wow.

rudy.

[lon lewis]

This has to be the one of your most ridiculous positions yet. First you post an email that was in response to an email from "Chris Arone" who had asked some specific questions and then had asked about my thoughts on some fairly out there possibilities. As usual you took out what you thought would benefit you and managed to leave out what the questions were and my full responses were. When he had asked about the Lynn sizes in a previous email I had typed in 1976-78 for a year range instead of 75-78 and I was correcting that. Wow, there's a big gotcha. The fact that the "regular" players had one more complete uniform than most of the others doesn't mean that they would get a new one every 27 games it's just what was ordered. I could go into the reasoning behind this but you'd never comprehend it. As far as softball jerseys, high school jerseys and others, that was in reference to your dis-belief that anything but major league jerseys would be tagged in the manner of the Red Sox and A's. It's a pretty assinine assumption to think that all of the high school, college, softball and minor league teams are called the A's or Red Sox. But somehow you made that brilliant leap. For the final time It seems only you doubt the existence of the aftermarket jerseys and nothing is going to change that. Great, it must be nice to be in denial ( not the river in Egypt) Somewhere in this mess someone (probably you) wants to know why if Stall and Dean is still around you can't get the records.Well that's not the same Stall and Dean of the 60's 70's and 80's. The Stall and Dean that I reference was owned by Richard Stall and sold to what I think is still the current owner Russell McKinnon in 1997 the sale did not include the McAuliffe label/ Corp so that's probably a blind alley as it's a different owner, different location and a different mission. I no longer feel the need to keep correcting your intentional misrepresentations and quite frankly your arguments are tiresome. You've tried to run to Mears for support and they politely told you to take a hike, you've flailed about here dismissing everyone and everything. You want this and you want that, but you want someone else to do the work for you. You say you've done this and you've done that. As I have said to you in the past in emails do you really want to get into a resume contest with me? For now and until the "project" is complete I'm going to as they say "pursue other interests" so go ahead and post your inaccurate comments, tantrums and anything else you like. The people here know what 's going on with you. Keep bailing

[kingjammy24]

.. so I guess numerous advanced collectors threw away thousands on the yaz, and williams in lelands and that lelands knowingly sold bad items?

hey eric,

does this sound familiar?

"Well you know what auction houses sell BAD crap all day long. Lelands pulls stuff all the time from auction, so does ever other major auction house because errors are made.."

let me refresh your memory, you said it back in 2004 when you were a "novice". so when it suits your purpose you feel that "auction houses sell BAD crap all day long.." and "lelands pulls stuff all the time.." yet then it's convenient for your purpose you'll say "..wouldn't major auction houses know this and not make the same mistake for years?" and "Yeah it is funny that an auction house or dealer would take the risk for a few thousand dollars because knowingly selling an item that is not what it is stated to be is fraud; and fraud equals jail time. Each and every act of fraud is punishable by no less than 1 and no more than 4 years in jail for each act plus restitution to the adversely affected party. So yeah to me their is no upside and only down side".

what happened to "auction houses sell BAD crap all day long" eric?

"I will not sit around and let him state one thing in one post and an email and another elsewhere.

"I have not bailed once"

"..does not mean you follow that person, especially when they have made conflicting statements.."

with "25 yrs of experience", you would've had about 21 yrs worth in 2004. but with 21 yrs worth of experience you didn't know what "game-issued" meant.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Good luck to all of you and your collections.

Lund6771 I was new to hockey collecting and made a big error.

Lund 6771. Yes I tried to flip before I owned the items then found out these shirts had been passed thru the hobby as bad jerseys previously and the current owner was trying to unload them onto me.

I was out of my field of expertise with hockey I did not do my home work and learned my lesson the hard way. It has not happened since then. I am sure we have all tried to place items that we part of a larger collection to make a deal work.

I took the sellers word on the shirts and found out they had numerous issues and were on the web as know fakes. I made a mistake one which I will never make again. I relayed the info he provided me and that info turned out to not be correct. I should have done my home work I did not.

However what I did in reference to trying to pre sell the items is no different then a dealer offering a collector a piece that has been offered to them. The dealer does not want to buy the piece outright but if they can find a customer for it and make a profit they will do so. That to this day I still do not feel is wrong, that is business.

Since then I have brokered many deals, added to my personal collection, located numerous items and numerous respected board members and high profile dealers have completed transactions with me for everything from 2004 WS Players Ring, to a vintage 50ties Packers HOF players jersey, to 1919 WS program and tickets, to Brooklyn Dodgers Jerseys and banners, to Boston Braves bats, hats awards and everything in between.

Would I like to keep all items I locate yes. Can I afford to no.

Have we all not done the same thing as collectors? Is there anyone on the board who has never sold an item for profit?

With regards to the current deal Chris has my address, copy of my license cell phone # and email and can get in touch with me any time he likes. if he wants his money back I will meet him right now.

This to me is not about being right or wrong it is about coming to a conclusion on how to judge McAuliffe shirts and what exactly the borderless tag means. If others have spent hard earned money on something that is wrong then I would try and help them get their money back, I have stated that numerous times.

[Rob L]

Any idea what year this jersey came out? It's a mesh McAuliffe Red Sox retail jersey, no blue border.

[ChrisCavalier]

While I realize this topic can provide a great deal of useful information to collectors, I'm afraid at this point this thread is beginning to stray from it's usefulness. With that said, I am going to lock this thread until Lon has accumulated the infromation he has referenced and can share it here with our community.

If anyone has any other questions regarding this thread please feel free to contact me directly. I, and I'm sure I join many others, look forward to seeing Lon's findings and trust many will benefit from his knowledge and efforts.