Game Used LOA's/COA's & Their Significants To The Hobby

[suave1477]

so an LOA from joe schmoe would carry the same weight in terms of resale value on an item as an LOA from MEARS? if that's the case, why is anyone even using MEARS? why not save yourself the money and write your own LOA? why do sellers even bother stating their items are "guaranteed to pass MEARS/PSA/GFC" if those entities are no more valuable than authentication by joe schmoe?

rudy.

I didn't mean of equal value in noteriety I was meaning more towards the home work that is done behind the LOA

If Joe Shmoe Loa has just as much conclusive evidence on it pertaining to the item being sold as would a Mears LOA to an item they are selling. To me it is basically equal value for what I am looking for. Not for the resale value of the item.

Example: If Joe Schmoe is selling a 1993 Don Mattingly Game Used Road Jersey and has detailed information on it of what makes it to be used directly by Mattingly and Mears has a 1993 Don Mattingly Game Used Home Jersey with similar detailed information on it.

I wouldn't buy the Mears one just because it was Mears. I would consider each Jersey based on what I am looking for.

Even a better example lets say Both were selling the same exact style of Jersey, year, player, and so on.
I wouldn't buy the Mears one just because it is from Mears. I would see which has more detailed information that best suits the usage of the player and decide from there.

Another example
PSA is a well recognized name in the hobby. But I would personally trust Jim Carravello's opinion on a Yankee bat before I do PSA.

These are just my opinions.

Now if your looking for resale value of coursea more recognized name in the hobby will most likely sell for more but in my eyes one doesn't hold more weight over the other unless either one shows me they have done there homework on the item.

[suave1477]

Suave -

While that is Generally a huge RED FLAG (99.9% of the time), there are a few Rockies GU items - particularly Jerseys - in the market that are AUTHENTIC GU items, but Retail tagged.

This issue has been presented to me MULTIPLE times by various Rockies Dug Out store Managers (they work for the Colorado Rockies) who obtain their GU merchandise directly from the Rockies.

There have been multiple occurrences where the Rockies (the Monforts are about the cheapest owners in baseball) have had to obtain a jersey for a player from the Retail Store in the Stadium because the Starting Pitcher chose to wear a Jersey Style that a particular player no longer had any of because the Rockies had done a 'Charity Signing' of stuff from that player before the game.

In those cases, the Rockies have ordered a Jersey made from the Retail store and had the Clubhouse Staff go and pick it up. Usually, those jerseys were reclaimed immediately after the game and put with a Rockies LOA for authenticity.

Unfortunately, the Rockies LOAs are pretty generic and they do not mention the background on these Retail jerseys.

That said, if you research the Russell tagging for Rockies jerseys, you will find that there is no set pattern there either. In the same season, some jerseys may have a Strip Tag with name and year, some just year, some with tailoring tags, and some with nothing at all.

The ONLY tell tale sign that a jersey from Russell (Majestic did not carry this trait on as far as I have been able to find out) came through the Rockies clubhouse is on the Home White jerseys.

ALL Home White Russell jerseys that came from Russell to the Rockies (not the Retail store, etc) have distinct CREAM colored buttons rather than the WHITE Pearlescent ones and they are stamped Colorado Rockies around the edge of the buttons

Just wanted to put that out there... I know it muddles the water, but unfortunately, sometimes the teams themselves make it harder to verify what is real or not.

All the best -

Chris

I agree a 100% there have been found from a time to time anomally in the hobby where possibly a retail item may have been used.
My point was mere a hypothitcal example that is it.

[suave1477]

I don't mean to get in the middle of this conversation, or put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the key word missing is EDUCATED BUYER. I think an LOA from Joe Schmoe would carry the same weight as an LOA from MEARS for the Educated Buyer. If you have a retail football helmet that includes a LOA from Lampson, I guarantee that would get bids on Ebay. No one on this forum would have any interest, because I believe everyone on this forum is an Educated Buyer. Now if I wrote up my own LOA that included detailed photo matching, helmet dating codes, specific things that team equipment managers would do to identify helmets, etc..., I would guarantee that the general public would find my personal LOA an insult. But the educated helmet buyer would probably find more value in my LOA with detailed backup, than a "popular" LOA that was completely incorrect. But as far as why are these athentication services still being used??...I believe you addressed the answer fairly well above. It's about brand name, marketing, letting everyone know you are the foremost expert on everything, etc. The average person who doesn't know about the GUU Forum (and I'm sure there are thousands of buyers who are unaware, otherwise how would these awful auction items even get bids??) puts all of their faith that the auction houses are doing the homework for them. I'm sure all of us on this forum have been burned, or know of someone who has been burned by an auction house. But believe it or not, there still is a large group of people who take these auction house LOA/COA as Gospel, and they would think a Joe Schmoe LOA/COA would be worthless.

Thats my point i a nut shell!!

[kingjammy24]

while i agree that an 'educated buyer' wouldn't weigh a 'big name' LOA over any other, would an educated buyer even have a need for an LOA in the first place?

the original question was why don't individual collectors make up their own LOAs. if we're referring to educated buyers here, then i guess i'd change my answer and say that there's no need. if you know what you're looking at, then what value is an LOA going to have?

rudy.

[jhunt28]

You' are 100% correct in what you just said. If you know what you're looking for, and if you know what you're looking at is the real thing, then why bother with a COA/LOA in the first place? I cannot say for sure where COA/LOA's came from, but I'm pretty certain it came about for resale value. The question I was addressing is "why is it that the average joe cannot make a LOA/COA for an item that they are trying to sell if they have all the correct information that would outweigh a LOA/COA from a Big Named Company?" It wasn't a question of whether or not a legit item in question needed or didn't need a COA/LOA. The question that I took out of the thread was "Why doesn't a personal COA/LOA hold the same credibility as a more well known authentication service?" And obviously the question was brought to a head after we have been seeing a glutton of bad items trying to be sold as legitimate. We also have such a diverse, knowledgeable base of collectors on this forum like yourself, that we can discuss these topics. For all we know, discussions like this might even lead to GUU Forum COA's??? Wouldn't you rather buy a helmet/jersey/bat that passed GUU inspection, rather than AMI? I'm pretty sure everyone on this forum would feel much more comfortable with that.

[halzeus]

while i agree that an 'educated buyer' wouldn't weigh a 'big name' LOA over any other, would an educated buyer even have a need for an LOA in the first place?

the original question was why don't individual collectors make up their own LOAs. if we're referring to educated buyers here, then i guess i'd change my answer and say that there's no need. if you know what you're looking at, then what value is an LOA going to have?

rudy.

My interest in putting together an LOA is more a question of recording the history of an item. The heirs of my memorabilia may not be as knowledgeable and it would be nice to have something they could rely on for information.

[kingjammy24]

My interest in putting together an LOA is more a question of recording the history of an item. The heirs of my memorabilia may not be as knowledgeable and it would be nice to have something they could rely on for information.

then we're not talking about LOA/COA/COO/LOOs here. we're talking about provenance. it's not about rendering an opinion regarding authenticity, its about documenting the origins of an item.

rudy.

[xpress34]

I agree a 100% there have been found from a time to time anomally in the hobby where possibly a retail item may have been used.
My point was mere a hypothitcal example that is it.

Suave -

I got your point, I just wanted to put the info out there because as far as I know, the Rockies have probably been the most abusive team (at least in the early years) of doing those kinds of things.

While were on the subject, I would like to add this info as well based on another thread on GUU (Players using others players bats or other equipment)

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_f...?t=9589&page=3

In the thread, many GUU posters have pics of players using other players equipment and in one post, someone talks about guys using Diablo brand bats at Spring Training.

As far as players using other player bats and such, unfortunately - especially on bats - most teams don't pay attention to those details and when those bats are broken or discarded, the team will simply collect them and tag them as GU bay the Players whose name is on the barrell.

As far as bringing up Diablo bats, I have to share what I was told by Clint Barmes of the Rockies at High Corbett just a few weeks ago.

Clint knows me bcause I use to work for Rawlings and I made Clint a CUSTOM Maple Bat:







I actually made two and they are #d 1 of 2 and 2 of 2:



Clint chose one and signed the other for me. He has used it in Batting Practice but can't use it in games as I am not 'MLB Certified' (Yet - I am working on that) to make Game Bats for Players. Clint has already offered to write me a 'Testimonial' if I need it to get certified with MLB.

Anyway, the point is Clint uses Diablo Bats for Games and when I saw him, he was using one of Kip Wells LVS that was left behind from last year. I asked why and he said he didn't have any Diablos left over and becuase of the new MLB directive on Maple bats, Diablo is NO LONGER a Certified MLB Bat Maker because they either cannot or will not meet MLBs new standards on grain and such for Maple due to the cost differential.

He is using the Kip Wells and other pitchers bats because Clint likes a 33" bat and as light as possible -which would fit most pitchers bats.

It will be interesting to see if any of those Diablos that other players were using in ST end up on the market as GAMERS for the 2009 Season.

As always, just my .02 - hope it helps out fellow collectors.

- Chris

[xpress34]

My interest in putting together an LOA is more a question of recording the history of an item. The heirs of my memorabilia may not be as knowledgeable and it would be nice to have something they could rely on for information.

I agree with you on this. My wife is somewhat interested and knows what some items in my collection are and asks about others from time to time, so while I have LOTS of free time right now (I'm home bound from work on Work Comp - Temporary Total Disability) I am documenting my items both to update Insurance Records and so my wife and son know what is there if something happened to me.

I think ALL collectors should 'Catalog' there collections as we are far more knowledgeable now about what items are and the fact they have value then folks from the past with the 'Oral Story' passed down with the item.

Technically, those items could be called 'Pre-Historic' in our hobby - the base difference between Pre-Historic and Historic is the Written Word.

All the best -

Chris

[xpress34]

while i agree that an 'educated buyer' wouldn't weigh a 'big name' LOA over any other, would an educated buyer even have a need for an LOA in the first place?

the original question was why don't individual collectors make up their own LOAs. if we're referring to educated buyers here, then i guess i'd change my answer and say that there's no need. if you know what you're looking at, then what value is an LOA going to have?

rudy.

Rudy -

I have an AUTO piece (I know this is a GU discussion) I'd like to share to VALIDATE your point about KNOWING what you are looking at.

I recently purchased an AUTO Ball on eBay - not because of the Buyer's description, but because of my own Research and Homework.

The Ball was listed (quite honestly I must add) as a 'Secretarial Signature' of a HOFer because the exemplars that the seller had pics of from PSA/DNA did not match the ball.

The PSA/DNA examples they used were all CUT Autos or Index Cards (which could be Secretary Sigs themselves) all of which could be Through the Mail Autos. Well, I found another PSA/DNA exemplar on-line that I KNOW the HOFer had to be there to sign - one of his Contracts!

Guess what - the Auto on the Contract matches the Ball - NOT the Index Cards and such that PSA/DNA had also certified.

So I bought the ball for $12.99 + #10.00 S/H... Clark Griffith (former Player - then Owner of the Senators) for whom Griffith Stadium was named. BV on a Griffith Single Signed Ball - $3,200.00.

IF I send it to PSA/DNA (I have had terrible experiences with them with pieces I have had signed IN-PERSON), I will be referring to their other Certified Autos in my submission.



Whether GU or AU, these kinds of deals don't come along often, but they are out there if you are willing to do the leg work.

On the GU side, I added a hat to my collection that I also watched on eBay for a couple of months. A Sparky Anderson GU Tigers Hat from 1994 (his LAST SEASON) with the 125th Ann Bronze Pin still on the MLB Logo and AUTOd w/ HOF 2000 Inscription.

It went around and around and the price kept dropping... I think the RED FLAG was the Detroit Tigers INC LOA - NOT Detroit Tigers Baseball Club (like most MLB Teams)... I finally Googled Detroit Tigers Inc. Guess what - it took me right to the Detroit Tigers MLB Page!!! When I checked the name on the LOA, it turned out to be the Director of Public Relations for the Tigers!

I immediately went back and bought the hat on a BIN for $74.99. GU AU HOFer Hat from his last season!!!

I would love to hear opinions from people here, but most collectors I know think Value is probably closer to $500 or so being a GU w/ Tigers LOA and AU from a HOFers Last Season in MLB.

All the best -

Chris