A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

[aeneas01]

who cares if someone has a secret agenda, is posting from san quentin while serving a thirty year stretch, kicks the dog on a regular basis, has designs to corner the market by attacking the competition, is an all around bad guy, doesn't practice what he preaches, doesn't give mom a jingle on mother's day? so what?

what on earth does this have to do with information, the topic at hand? either the information is true or it isn't - nothing contained in an accuser's computer dating profile matters. show me a site that offers nothing but blatant lies, false accusations, unfounded claims and worthless information and i will agree with you. but i've noticed that no one is stating that about autographalert.

heck, the references to the schmidt and bando fiascos involving spence on fox news is alone worth a visit. not because they were horribly embarrassing moments for spence and his company, but because it was a rare opportunity to watch one of these guys in action, applying their "expertise" to the task at hand. very scary.

btw i think it's pretty bizarre that someone would be so rabidly ardent in their negative portrayal of autographalert in this situation - i mean everyone gets it, everyone understands the score over there, no one is under the impression that the place is a pillar of integrity. as such continuing to post examples of their bungled work is rather peculiar - even more peculiar are the claims that folks are "glorifying" the site. especially considering that the topic at hand has nothing to with which of of two owns the better resume. truly bizarre.

...

[mvandor]

who cares if someone has a secret agenda, is posting from san quentin while serving a thirty year stretch, kicks the dog on a regular basis, has designs to corner the market by attacking the competition, is an all around bad guy, doesn't practice what he preaches, doesn't give mom a jingle on mother's day? so what?

what on earth does this have to do with information, the topic at hand? either the information is true or it isn't - nothing contained in an accuser's computer dating profile matters. show me a site that offers nothing but blatant lies, false accusations, unfounded claims and worthless information and i will agree with you. but i've noticed that no one is stating that about autographalert.

heck, the references to the schmidt and bando fiascos involving spence on fox news is alone worth a visit. not because they were horribly embarrassing moments for spence and his company, but because it was a rare opportunity to watch one of these guys in action, applying their "expertise" to the task at hand. very scary.

btw i think it's pretty bizarre that someone would be so rabidly ardent in their negative portrayal of autographalert in this situation - i mean everyone gets it, everyone understands the score over there, no one is under the impression that the place is a pillar of integrity. as such continuing to post examples of their bungled work is rather peculiar - even more peculiar are the claims that folks are "glorifying" the site. especially considering that the topic at hand has nothing to with which of of two owns the better resume. truly bizarre.

...

Robert, this has to do with, among other things, credibility. The individuals associated with the site in question simply have none.

[trsent]

Joel,



Again, I ask you what is wrong with the Apollo 11 photo?

What is wrong with the DiMaggio jersey?

If you are going to use these as examples to claim authentication of forgeries, then you should point out the reasons why, or name your source.



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If you would care to read the www.autographalert.com, I believe their agenda, as you state, is very clear.

There is nothing hidden, as they plainly state in English what their purpose is.

For all we know your source for the photos you are posting is one of the other authentication companies mentioned.

The two images posted are clearly not genuine and no one can claim they are genuine. Autograph Alert should post these two items. Maybe while they are at it they can post Steve Koshal's sale of John Wayne Gacy items that was well documented.

Sorry you and I do not see eye to eye on this one.

You really care where I found just two examples of questionable autographs that Steve Koshal has authenticated? I would like Autograph Alert to reveal these two items as they are both FAKE - Who cares who supplied me with these examples? Am I being accused of hiding something? At least when I make a post I don't hide behind a web site pretending I have nothing to do with my findings.

who cares if someone has a secret agenda, is posting from san quentin while serving a thirty year stretch, kicks the dog on a regular basis, has designs to corner the market by attacking the competition, is an all around bad guy, doesn't practice what he preaches, doesn't give mom a jingle on mother's day? so what?

either the information is true or it isn't - nothing contained in an accuser's computer dating profile matters. show me a site that offers nothing but blatant lies, false accusations, unfounded claims and worthless information and i will agree with you. but i've noticed that no one is stating that about autographalert.

heck, the references to the schmidt and bando fiascos involving spence on fox news is alone worth a visit. not because they were horribly embarrassing moments for spence and his company, but because it was a rare opportunity to watch one of these guys in action, applying their "expertise" to the task at hand. very scary.

- i mean everyone gets it, everyone understands the score over there, no one is under the impression that the place is a pillar of integrity. as such continuing to post examples of their bungled work is rather peculiar - even more peculiar are the claims that folks are "glorifying" the site. especially considering that the topic at hand has nothing to with which of of two owns the better resume. truly bizarre.

...

Robert, I am sorry - We I will also disagree with you on this one along with many others.

A criminal publicly and with their identities hidden attacking others does not make for a positive experience. Their information is often not factual and very misleading. You can like anyone calling anything questionable out all you want, but the reason for such and the background of why is really sad.

?


Then again, you are basically telling us that if criminals attack others at least the information is being offer so the public has more negative energy to work with?

When an honest person such as yourself signs his findings it is respectable. When someone hides their identity and lives their life to attack the competition, even though the competition is correct a high percentage of the time - I get tired of seeing the burning at the cross for a personal agenda that they don't even take credit for because they are so scared of the libel suits!

[sammy]

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[xpress34]

I've been reading this RANT between board members for days now, but this quote just had me thinking of a similar situation - that is relevant currently in the collecting world as well...

Jose Canseco. Admitted Roid user who names others... everyone cries foul and says - 'You can't trust him. He's just bitter and pointing the finger to take the spotlight off of himself.' Has he been proven wrong yet on ANYONE he named? No.

That said, whether you like AutographAlert or not, their information should be an eye opener about the HOBBY and the BUSINESS in General. Has ANYONE proven them wrong yet on any of their Claims? Not that I'm aware of... if they are, where are the LAWSUITS???

If guys here can PROVE who owns the board, I'm sure BIG COMPANIES like PSA/DNA, UDA, etc can do so as well and would use that to file suit - if for no other reason than to show that they STAND BEHIND THEIR OWN FINDINGS...

But GUESS WHAT? They don't... they crack and break and admit their fault - but ONLY because they have been called out.

Regardless of the background of the so called 'owner' of AutographAlert, they have cast a shadow over an industry in which they were/are involved - they had to know that it can and more than likely WILL blow back over them and their work as well.

They may not have 'crucified' their own work/findings, but they also haven't named themselves or tried to compare their work against those they have crucified themselves as being better researched or more reliable, etc so how can anyone say that this site is SELF SERVING.

PLEASE, show me ONE Post on there that raves on about how good THEIR items are or where they compare items they question from PSA/DNA, UDA, etc against their own items.

Unless they are DIRECTLY using that forum to promote their own items EXPLICITLY (Claiming that by NOT naming themselves IMPLIES they are reputable would NOT stand up in court), then HOW can you attack the forum and claim it's self serving???

I could give a---- about Steve Koshal - and if he is a Fraud, I hope he gets what's coming to him - BUT, until an item that is brought up and disputed (PUBLICLY I might add) on AutographAlert is Challenged and Defended by the ORIGINATING Authenticator, I will continue to follow the column as it is one of the BEST sources of information out there right now.

There are plenty of articles (outside of this thread) attacking AutographAlert because of it ties to Steve Koshal, but again - NONE dispute any of the findings on the site... all just a bunch of Sour Grapes because the site exposes the naivete and amatuer policies used by BIG companies to get items authenticated while trying to keep themselves protected from any liability stemming from said items sale based on THEIR 'hired guns' opinions.



I will close by offering this 'Hypothesis'... it is my opinion that it appears to me that Joel seems to think EVERYONE who defends AA most be a suck up or in cahoots with them.



WHEW!!!

Okay guys - that's my .02 on this issue - have at it and do what you will with it... I can't wait to see the responses...

- Chris

[xpress34]

I'm sorry, I can't help myself... I HAVE to add this:

The two images posted are clearly not genuine and no one can claim they are genuine.

PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME. I can claim they are Genuine if I am a Novice Collector and I own them because I have a letter from an AUTOGRAPH AUTHENTICATOR saying so... just like the ones I have for numerous items in my basement. Was James Spence there in 1952 to witness the Yankeess team ball I am considering buying? NO, I'm pretty certain he wasn't - but he sure as hell authenticated the Autographs...

So, if I am a novice and I am expected to accept JSA's Credibility as well as PSA/DNA. etc, etc... why shouldn't I trust these two images?

Because YOU say so? I say they are real. (not really, just for arguements sake) And like yourself, I will give NO explanation as to why I claim that. We now have a he said/he said situation. NO WINNERS.

So again, ENLIGHTEN me with your REASONS that they are FAKE. Just like PSA/DNA telling me the Pujols ball he signed in front of me at Nike adn the A-Rod ball my friend got me at Spring Training both fail to pass authentication for the EXACT SAME REASONS. BS!!! Two different autos, different ink, etc... no way they both have the EXACT same reasons for NOT passing (i.e. FORM LETTER - because it was my 1st submission to them - I'm not a dealer who can grease the wheels).

At least AA puts up what they are comparing the item too, history of the signer or their signature, etc.

You sir offer simply - your opinion...and everybody has one...

Again, just my .02...

- Chris

[fromcooperstowntohollywood]

I'm sorry, I can't help myself... I HAVE to add this:



PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME. I can claim they are Genuine if I am a Novice Collector and I own them because I have a letter from an AUTOGRAPH AUTHENTICATOR saying so... just like the ones I have for numerous items in my basement. Was James Spence there in 1952 to witness the Yankeess team ball I am considering buying? NO, I'm pretty certain he wasn't - but he sure as hell authenticated the Autographs...

So, if I am a novice and I am expected to accept JSA's Credibility as well as PSA/DNA. etc, etc... why shouldn't I trust these two images?

Because YOU say so? I say they are real. (not really, just for arguements sake) And like yourself, I will give NO explanation as to why I claim that. We now have a he said/he said situation. NO WINNERS.

So again, ENLIGHTEN me with your REASONS that they are FAKE. Just like PSA/DNA telling me the Pujols ball he signed in front of me at Nike adn the A-Rod ball my friend got me at Spring Training both fail to pass authentication for the EXACT SAME REASONS. BS!!! Two different autos, different ink, etc... no way they both have the EXACT same reasons for NOT passing (i.e. FORM LETTER - because it was my 1st submission to them - I'm not a dealer who can grease the wheels).

At least AA puts up what they are comparing the item too, history of the signer or their signature, etc.

You sir offer simply - your opinion...and everybody has one...

Again, just my .02...

- Chris

Chris...just in case you are wondering, the 500HR Club ball you purchased from the classified section is fake. No, I'm not kidding, and you can ask Sammy. Steve Koshcal slams authenticators but owns an authentication company. And the astronaut photo Joel showed, I have the same one, but mine is an autopen. Last, we are all human and we are all going to make mistakes. Maybe autograph alert should say authenticators like PSA and JSA are accurate 99% of the time, but you'll never get THAT out of a company that wants to be the ONLY authenticators on the block.

[xpress34]

Chris...just in case you are wondering, the 500HR Club ball you purchased from the classified section is fake. No, I'm not kidding, and you can ask Sammy. Steve Koshcal slams authenticators but owns an authentication company. And the astronaut photo Joel showed, I have the same one, but mine is an autopen. Last, we are all human and we are all going to make mistakes. Maybe autograph alert should say authenticators like PSA and JSA are accurate 99% of the time, but you'll never get THAT out of a company that wants to be the ONLY authenticators on the block.

Coop -

1st, where did you come up that I bought the 500 HR ball? Yes, I inquired on it but I did my homework and didn't touch it. I know he sold it, but not to me.

2nd, so you have the same Astronaut photo as Joel but yours is an autopen... okay? What does that have to do with Joel NOT giving any reason for why he claims the one he showed is a fake? Is he implying that because it has a Steve Koshcal LOA that it is fake? Like has been said about 'Uncle' Lou and others on these boards, has Koschal faked or lied about EVERY item he ahs ever authenticated - or has he been right once in awhile?

Finally, guys keep claiming that Steve Koshcal and AA want to be the ONLY authenticators on the block but again I ask - where exactly IS the LINK on AA to THEIR Authentication Service???

OH, that's right... I forgot... because they don't slam Steve Koshcal, they are subvertly driving you to his services??? I'll admit - before I started reading this post, I had never even herad of Steve Koshcal, so if I was a novice collecrot who just came accross AA and I had no idea who he was, please ENLIGHTEN me and tell me EXACTLY how they are driving me to their services???

So they salm PSA/DNA, JSA, UDA, etc... I'm pretty certain if I was a naive novice and did a Google search of Autograph Authenticators that outside of those, Steve Koshcal would NOT be the only other name to come up...

And AGAIN, I will point out - unless you can direct me to some other site saying differently - PSA/DNA, JSA, etc have NEVER publicly disputed what has been reported on AA and NEVER filed suit against them for Slander or Libel.

Those are the same BENCHMARKS we hold athletes to when an accusation is made against them for using steroids, etc - where is the OUTRAGE?, where is the LAWSUIT? When there isn't one, we immediately say the claim must be true since they aren't disputing it.

You do the math.

- Chris

[xpress34]

Maybe autograph alert should say authenticators like PSA and JSA are accurate 99% of the time, but you'll never get THAT out of a company that wants to be the ONLY authenticators on the block.

I forgot to add... I would LOVE to see PROOF that AA has said (verbatim) that PSA/DNA and JSA are ALWAYS wrong and NEVER get it right and that NO ONE should ever trust their opinions.

And just to be clear, I am in no way affiliated with AA or any other so called 'Authenticator' - and I am sure that PSA/DNA and JSA do well at what they do, but as has been pointed out many times, unless they are there IN PERSON to WITNESS (not 'Authenticate') the Autograph, their Opinion is just the same as mine - an OPINION. They told me that my Pujols ROY Auto that I obtained IN PERSON (while working for Nike) - that I WITNESSED Albert sign for me was 'Likely Not Genuine' because they had not seen a ROY Inscription from him? SERIOUSLY? So because THEY hadn't seen one, it doesn't exsist unless it was FAKED?

That is why many of my autos will NEVER be 'AUTHENTICATED'... why do I want to waste my money on items I KNOW are real because I personally WINESSED them being signed to ahve someone else who wasn't there render their OPINION on whether it is AUTHENTIC or not?

Case in Point (and pictures to follow)... My Clark Griffith AUTO Ball... and obscure HOFer to many, Griffith was once a player and later owner of the Washington Senators - in fact the former Major League Park 'Griffith Stadium' was named in his Honor.

Well, about 6 months ago a Griffith 'Secretarial Signature' was offered on eBay - sweet spot on old ball (No visible AL/NL markings)... his reasoning for calling it a secretarial signature was it didn't match the PSA/DNA cert example he could find (Index card auto - which could have been through the mail and therefore a Secretarial sig itself):




This PSA DNA example is one I found - ON a CONTRACT that Griffith HAD to be present to sign! It's a LEGAL Document...



And Finally - this is the ball...



Notice how the 'C' and the open 'G' in Clark and Griffith on the Ball match the CONTRACT, but NOT the Index Card? And the 'line' crossing the T and H in Griffith is a straight line on both the CONTRACT and the BALL, but on the Index card it loops of the end of the H?

It is MY OPINION that the Ball is NOT a Secretarial Signature, but rather the GENUINE Article based on the two 'exemplars' BOTH from the Same AUTHENTICATOR but obviously NOT the same and using common sense to deduce that the Contract would carry the stronger Provence that Clark Griffith HAD to be ther to put his John Hancock on it.

What did this baby cost me??? $25.00. $12.99 winning bid and $10 s/h... now, go look up a Clark Griffith single signed ball in Tough Stuff or whatever Auto Price Guide you use... $3,200.00 HOFer single signed ball... I MAY send it to PSA/DNA just to see what they say... and if it comes back 'likely NOT genuine', I will resubmit it witht the two opposing examples from above and ask them to explain HOW exactly it doesn't match their 'exemplar' database. If they DO Authenticate it, then any self respecting HOF Auto collector should be willing to make me a tidy profit in order to ahve this bad boy in his collection.

I bring this example up also because I would like to hear their comments about two obviously different style sigs of the same person both authenticated by them after I have heard story time and time again where they have given the 'unable to certify' or 'likely not genuine' because the persons auto in question has alwasy been consistent???

Alright... I've ranted on long enough here... let the disection begin!

- Chris

[trsent]

Okay guys - that's my .02 on this issue - have at it and do what you will with it... I can't wait to see the responses...

- Chris

Sorry, I don't like criminals attacking others. You like their facts? Part of them are made up, the other part the authenticators have made adjustments over.

What refunds has Steve Koshal given for all the money he has stolen from the honest public?

Oh yeah, it doesn't matter because he gave good information.



I do not believe those with a hidden agenda should be praised for revealing an error found here or there when their errors are never disclosed on the web site even though they do not take credit for their work.

Keep praising the findings of a group bent on revenge for past dealings.

Finally, you attack me for not revealing where I found errors in Steve Koshal COAs? I take full credit for finding those and stand behind them. So what is your stupid issue with this? I signed my post - I posted those images.

I take full credit for them. What is the issue beyond that?