Lou Gehrig "gamer"

[GoTigers]

I love the money back garauntee, and the three pages it takes to explain it. Basically, to get your money back (from TSA) you have to have a signed and notarized letter from Gehrig ,on a Yankee letterhead, that says he never used that particular bat.

This guy has to be seriously insane to go through with all this.. I mean best case scenerio is that somebody buys the bat, and this guy has six months to spend the money before he's in court.

I can just imagine this moron pulling an all nighter on Word to create his logo.. Contacting hologram suppliers.. Buying "antiqued" paper that perfectly matches his futuristic logo. Hilarious.

[sylbry]

Let's assume that the seller is completely clueless (which I don't believe for a second, especially when he name drops Joe Orlando and Vince Malta).

This is my favorite line, "they [TSA] only charge me for what they will authenticate, not for what they will not..."

Now let's compare the authentication rates by one known bat authenticator:

Bat valued under $999 - fee is $75
Bat valued over $25,000 - fee is $500

I can see the exchange going something like this:

Seller: "I have this old bat with the name Fuhler stamped in the barrel. What do you think of it?"

TSA: "Oh, that is a Lou Gehrig rookie game used bat."

Seller: "How do you know? After all, the name Paul Suerh is hand written on it."

TSA: "Trust me, I have a picture. That will be $500."

[sylbry]

Here is the stated terms of the money back guarantee. Items itallicized are comments made by me.

Total Sports Authenticators (TSA) will offer a 30 day money back guarantee from the time of a dated paid receipt of said item, to have said item thoroughly examined by a recognized third party expert, then returned to TSA with verifiable contradictory factual and historical evidence,(not opinions), such as, factory records, player characteristics, historical documentation, historical provenance, etc, to prove beyond all doubts that said item was willfully incorrectly and inaccurately authenticated by TSA.


So in order to get a refund you need to receive the bat, mail it to a 3rd party “expert”, have the document a negative (bat was not used by Lou) in detail as stated in the following paragraph, and mail it back to TSA (do they even provide their address?) all within 30 days. And what is this ‘dated paid receipt?” What seller’s offer a receipt?


The recognized third party expert must include a written, hand signed, and notarized statement on a company letterhead explaining in complete details their research that confirms the verifiable contradictory factual and historical evidence,(not opinions), such as stated above, that proves beyond all doubts that said item was willfully incorrectly and inaccurately authenticated by TSA.


Now TSA will then and only then issue a full refund to the inquiring owner of the dated paid receipt, including the cost of the authentication (if same owner, according to TSA records), within 30 days of the dated paid receipt, if all TSA policies, terms and conditions, stated above, are followed and a completely thorough and credible examination, stated above, by a recognized third party expert reveals and confirms verifiable contradictory factual and historical evidence,(not opinions), such as stated above, that proves beyond all doubts that said item was willfully incorrectly and inaccurately authenticated by TSA.

Credible by whom? And what is with the “proves beyond all doubts that said item was willfully incorrect…” statement. It appears three times. Do they really think that if they just screwed up but didn’t mean it then they are off the hook?


Now all Consigners, Auction Houses, Dealers, Collectors, and Sellers will not be held liable for full refunds of said item by TSA only if in complete compliance with TSA policies, terms, and conditions stated above regarding authentication of said item. Now all Auctioneers and/or Sellers are required, to be exempt from liability for full refunds of said item, (under TSA policies, terms and conditions), to include a complete and thorough description of said item providing detailed evidence, such as, manufacturing characteristics, player characteristics, historical documentations, historical provenance, etc, and must include the TSA Certificate of Authentication and Letter of Authentication. TSA will provide free appraisals and consultations to Auctioneers/Sellers, if needed.


All auctioners and sellers are REQUIRED to be exempt from liability? Good to know that TSA can grant that exemption. And what happens when TSA is unable to be contacted for refund? I mean contact info consisting of a P.O Box and a cell phone are not exactly inspiring. But don’t worry sellers, TSA said you are required to be exempt.


TSA will not be liable whatsoever for ANY ITEM (not in TSA Custody) that is lost, stolen, or damaged. TSA will not be liable whatsoever for ANY ITEM sold mismarked and/or inappropriately described, any unauthorized or illegal use of TSA Certificates of Authentication and/or Letters of Authentication, any unauthorized or illegal use of TSA names and/or labels. All controversies and/or claims arising out of TSA Authentication services will be adjudicated in the courts of Queens County, New York. In addition to all relief deemed appropriate by the court, the prevailing party (including TSA) shall be compensated for all attorneys fees and any other costs of litigation, even if that stipulation is not directly provided for by statute.


It would appear TSA is trying to scare you out of persuing legal action. First, you need to fly to Queens, and second, if you can not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the bat was not used by Lou Gehrig AND TSA willfully made an incorrect authentication, well then you owe TSA compensation.


I wonder if these fools really believe this language would protect them from legal action. However I don’t think they care. If someone ever paid a fair sum for the bat, TSA would cease to exist after payment reception.


This is called trying to pull a fast one. Plain and simple.

[legaleagle92481]

TSA has a website and operates from a PO Box in Whitestone, NY. The site appears to be under construction as they promise to put a photo of their LOA on the site soon. Oddly the site lacks the names or any information about the "authenticators". Could the Ebay seller have set up TSA as part of an elaborate scam to give legitmacy to his item? If you compare the two, TSA's website and the auction listing appear to be written by the same person based on the language used. Also the listing says the item is in College Point, NY which like Whitestone is located in the borough of Queens.

[sylbry]

I know I am beating a dead horse but this guy is just comical. Take this quote:

"When it comes to authenticating any bat and i mean any bat as being used by a certain player sometimes there are so many factors involved that goes well beyond just what can be found in H&B factory records alone. Especially when you consider the fact that many PRE-1930 H&B bat factory when and if they are found they are most of the time incomplete."

and

"However what does one do when faced with a bat that is not in that book such as the "1916 PHILIES MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYER WILBUR GOODE" he cant be found in that book yet nontheless i still authenticated his game used bat."

What type of factors do you think he considered when authenticating the Wilbur Goode bat? Known traits of Goode's game used bats? My guess is Wilbur Goode's name was stamped in the barrel. Yet for some reason a Fohler bat is a Lou Gehrig bat.

Or the better question is who do you think he attributed this bat to? Babe Ruth?

[joelsabi]

Here are some Q&A from the listing for later reference since later the listing will be removed. It may also assist in discussion also.

Question & Answer Answered On
Q: Would you be willing to accept $125k for this? Feb-16-10
A: I WILL NOT ACCEPT A PENNY NOT UNTIL YOU TELL ME WHY YOU ARE WILLING TO PAY THIS MUCH FOR THIS BAT. BESIDES YOU HAVE NOT ASKED ME A QUESTION ON THIS BAT PLEASE DO SO ANY KIND OF QUESTION. PROVIDING YOU ARE BOTH WELL INFORMED ON WHAT THIS BAT IS AND A LEGITIMATE BUSSINESS PERSON THEN THE SKY IS THE LIMIT. BUT ONLY TIME WILL TELL IT ALWAYS DOES. THANK YOU


Q: Here are some of the problems with your listing and responses (even though you have not rsponded to my previous questions.) First, parts of the 1924 ledger do exist. An order from Gehrig on 7-5-1924 is 35.5 inches and 40 oz... That length and weight are consistent with all of Gehrigs's documented orders as to length (35.5 to 36 inches in all 21 orders through 1930) and weight 36 to 40 oz in over 50 orders through 1937.) Joe Orlando is coprrect--in the absence of documented records (of which there are plenty here), you need to depend on known facts, such as brandings, lengths, and weights to come up with possible and probable scenarios. The bat in this auction fails in all regards: the interpretation of the branded name and the side-writing is incorrect and is irrelevant to any association with Gehrig, and the length and weight of the bat are completely uncharacteristic of any of over 70 specific documented Gehrig orders, beginning in 1924. Feb-16-10
A: Im sorry i took this long to respond im not dodging & ducking from u just been a bit busy thank you for being patient. Im not a bat expert but i sure can tell a contradiction when i read one. Either the 1924 ledger does exist or it does not. Now the first part of the 1924 ledger does exist lolol wtf is going on here really now. I noticed you have read what "TSA" wrote in response to other questions by saying "JOE ORLANDO IS CORRECT". So you read that response u do agree JOE ORLANDO IS CORRECT but only he can do that no one else right MR. MLBBATMAN just him ok i see whats going on here now. Well im not buying ok i know a MONOPOLY when i smell one. Here is what "TSA" wrote me yesterday on the subject: "Even though the factory shipping records logbook is lost from 1924 what about 1923 his first year with the N.Y. YANKEES". What about 1923 MR. MLBBATMAN i can agree with u on 1924 ill take u at your word ok but what about 1923. Here is what else "TSA" said yesterday on the subject: I provided several pictures although i have many more just ask showing "LOU GEHRIG" in N.Y. Yankee Stadium on 6-16-1923 his ROOKIE year with the Yankees using this exact same bat 5 months before 10-15-1923 which is when he signed his H&B endorsement bat contract. On 6-16-1923 "LOU GEHRIG" did not have an H&B endorsement contract he did however 5 months later on 10-15-1923 so what bats did he use in 1923 his ROOKIE year with the N.Y. Yankees. What bats did he use MR. MLBBATMAN because if "TSA" has mislead and decieved me in any way i will not only take down this auction right away but i will also pursue legal action against them for fraud i promise. Remember now 1923 is the key year here specifically 6-16-1923. Also keep in mind "TSA" dates this bat as a 1923-25 label timeframe period based on the style of the centerbrand this is what they told me. I will await your factual response patiently.

Q: I assume you are using Vince Malta's book, "A Complete Reference Guide Louisville Slugger Professional Player Bats" as your source for saying Lou Gehrig didn't order any bats in 1924. Read page 44, the factory shipping records logbook from 1924 is lost. Since Gehrig signed an endorsement contract with Hillerich & Bradsby on October 15, 1923 (this info is also in the referenced book,) it would seem highly likely that he was in fact ordering his own signature model bats from them in 1924. Instead of asking others to prove your bat was not used by Gehrig, what evidence do you have to say it WAS? Feb-15-10

A: In response to your question here is what "TSA" wrote me: Vince Malta wrote a very good book really ahead of its time good work Mr Malta. I know the man good guy his partner lets just say i would not buy a used car from the man he hides a lot & always angry I dont trust him. I have read the book as you can tell i said it is a very good book. However what does one do when faced with a bat that is not in that book such as the "1916 PHILIES MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYER WILBUR GOODE" he cant be found in that book yet nontheless i still authenticated his game used bat. So what im trying to say is that this book was indeed a major source may i say major but by no means the only source. Even though the factory shipping records logbook is lost from 1924 what about 1923 his first year with the N.Y. YANKEES. This cant be found in this book either so what does one do when H&B bat factory records are incomplete or nonexistent. Well there are various fhotos of the era from 1923 including magazines,newspapers and sporting goods public catalogs. Which by the way i am reminded of what "JOE ORLANDO president of psa" said NOV 8, 2004 in a press release regarding that "babe ruth" bat that sold for over 1 millon dollars. He said "our experts also had to evaluate other pertinent documentation this included 1920s era newspaper articles,photographs and other material supporting its provenance that this was the bat used by babe ruth to hit the first home run in the inagural game at Yankee Stadium on april 18, 1923" his words exactly. I provided several pictures although i have many more just ask showing "LOU GEHRIG" in N.Y. Yankee Stadium on 6-16-1923 his ROOKIE year with the Yankees using this exact same bat 5 months before 10-15-1923 which is when he signed his H&B endorsement bat contract. On 6-16-1923 "LOU GEHRIG" did not have an H&B endorsement contract he did however 5 months later on 10-15-1923 so what bats did he use in 1923 his ROOKIE year with the N.Y. Yankees. thank you

Q: You are nothing more than a scam artist hoping some unsuspecting buyer buys your items. You answer questions with questions and provide no proof or "evidence" to support your claims. Other than a squared off end, how can this bat be linked to Gehrig. I'll patient wait for your questions back to me. Feb-15-10
A: Unsuspecting buyer r u serious. Did you even read the "LOA" my friend or u too r from the other side trying to stir the water of senseless strife. Read it then u can comment & please tell me what is wrong with it what fact is out of place not your personal emotions im not married to you lol ok. thank you

Q: If I am reading your description correctly you are stating that the bat has the name “Paul Suerh” and dated “11/18/25”. The bat has the name Fohler stamped but yet you would want us to believe that this was used by Lou Gehrig?! By this theory you could have any bat with this type of end from a similar period and just assume that "well must have been used by by one of the top players of that era. Why would you not assume it is from a regular player...maybe perhaps by one of the names actually on the bat. I believe in giving everyone the benefit of the doubt but this is absurd. Feb-15-10
A: Here is the response "TSA" gave me on your question. "When it comes to authenticating any bat and i mean any bat as being used by a certain player sometimes there are so many factors involved that goes well beyond just what can be found in H&B factory records alone. Especially when you consider the fact that many PRE-1930 H&B bat factory when and if they are found they are most of the time incomplete. What this means then is that one must be an authenticator to really know and prove such as in this case a real LOU GEHRIG game used bat. I said an authenticator not a bat grader there is a very big diff. Besides many dont really want the facts here on this bat they are just playing for the other side i know this until the other side starts losing then they will come to their senses. I encourage anyone to read the entire "LOA" first before jumping to conclusion." thank you

Q: You need to contact the person you got this bat from because they
lied to you. There is nothing about this bat that can tie it to Gehrig. I have many bats in my collection that have the end cut off from that era. You have a common bat that is worth no more than $50. Whatever fly-by-night authenticator examined this bat is nothing short of a complete idiot. Feb-14-10
A: I spoke to the authenticator & told him what you said. He told me to ask you what bats did GEHRIG use in 1923 & 1924 while with the N.Y. YANKEES. He said based on your answer you give me i will know if you are a fraud or not. Let me ask you a question now how do you know this bat is a fake and not used by LOU GEHRIG you may be right so if you are trying to help me please tell me how do you know this. I will be awaiting your response its important that you answer me please this is not my intention to lie and mislead anyone. thank you

[5kRunner]

My guess is Wilbur Goode's name was stamped in the barrel.

The problem with the Goode bat is Wilbur Good doesn't have an "E" in his name. There are a couple Goode's, but apparently there is a tobacco card of Wilbur Good spelled Goode and that proves this is a Wilbur Good bat. And of course he has a fuzzy picture of Good using THIS bat.

All of his auctions are comical from the LOA's to claims of players using the bat from the auction in the pics to his incoherent responses.

According to a response to one of my questions, of course not posted on the auction. "I offer a 30 day money back guarantee." Which tells me the seller is TSA.

[Utopian2630]

All joking aside, its a shame what we have here. Now, I highly doubt any experienced collectors would be fooled by this listing, but, as someone pointed out earlier, there's a remote chance that SOMEONE could legitimately fall for his nonsense a purchase this bat. Ebay generates a ton of traffic, and there are people out there who can buy things on a whim just based on a LOA or great sounding story, (just watch the Real Sports segment on YouTube where the guy who got scammed mentioned buying all of those bad autographs based soley on the fact that they had a silly LOA with them).

What's even worse is all of the 'red-tape' they would have to go through just to get their money back. From reading through the Q and A, like other people have said, its becoming fairly clear that this seller knows what they are doing. Reading between the lines, especially given the names they have dropped within the bat industry, they know exactly what they have and are trying to hide under the umbrella of 'tell me its NOT real'.

I don't think this seller is trying to attract/fool any of the experienced collectors out there. I think the seller is going after the person who is willing to buy into some long winded song and take the seller on face value. Its a shame too, because its stuff like this that really sours people on this hobby.

[legaleagle92481]

All joking aside, its a shame what we have here. Now, I highly doubt any experienced collectors would be fooled by this listing, but, as someone pointed out earlier, there's a remote chance that SOMEONE could legitimately fall for his nonsense a purchase this bat. Ebay generates a ton of traffic, and there are people out there who can buy things on a whim just based on a LOA or great sounding story, (just watch the Real Sports segment on YouTube where the guy who got scammed mentioned buying all of those bad autographs based soley on the fact that they had a silly LOA with them).

What's even worse is all of the 'red-tape' they would have to go through just to get their money back. From reading through the Q and A, like other people have said, its becoming fairly clear that this seller knows what they are doing. Reading between the lines, especially given the names they have dropped within the bat industry, they know exactly what they have and are trying to hide under the umbrella of 'tell me its NOT real'.

I don't think this seller is trying to attract/fool any of the experienced collectors out there. I think the seller is going after the person who is willing to buy into some long winded song and take the seller on face value. Its a shame too, because its stuff like this that really sours people on this hobby.

I think it is pretty clear the seller is "TSA". If the bat sells the refund will not be an issue because noone will be able to find this guy. He knows what he is doing and is pertified of a setup look at the qs Joel cut and pasted from the listing. In one someone offers 125k and look at his response.

[MSpecht]

Here is another part of his response that is pretty telling (emphasis mine):

However what does one do when faced with a bat that is not in that book such as the "1916 PHILIES MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYER WILBUR GOODE" he cant be found in that book yet nontheless i still authenticated his game used bat. So what im trying to say is that this book was indeed a major source may i say major but by no means the only source.

Mike