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Auction Item Discussion Discuss items that are available in various auction venues. Please note this folder is NOT intended to list items for sale.

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  #11  
Old 05-26-2012, 11:43 AM
David David is offline
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Default Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

I was thinking the cost would include the man hours of finding the a photo(s) that photo matched. Searching one's photo archives.

A possible way to make money is for someone to maintain a massive online photo archive and charge for collectors to search through them. The money would be in having the archive. Hiring someone to look through their archives for you is like hiring a librarian. And paying someone for an expert opinion that a photo is a genuine official match is another thing.
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  #12  
Old 05-26-2012, 11:45 AM
David David is offline
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Default Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Sarlotty's post involved providing the expert with the photo, which was different than what I was thinking about.
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  #13  
Old 05-26-2012, 11:51 AM
David David is offline
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Default Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

As far as PSA/DNA goes and, say autograph authentication, I think the experts can authenticate many autographs really quickly-- almost at first site--, and more time is spent on other, harder ones.

I used to work for Beckett as their outside photograph (not autographed) expert, and they would send me digital via email photos of hard ones, ones they had troubles dating. I can tell you I took more than 2 seconds looking at those. And, before you ask, I was giving them outside advice not authenticating the digital image.
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  #14  
Old 05-26-2012, 02:34 PM
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trsent trsent is offline
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Default Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
As far as PSA/DNA goes and, say autograph authentication, I think the experts can authenticate many autographs really quickly-- almost at first site--, and more time is spent on other, harder ones.

I used to work for Beckett as their outside photograph (not autographed) expert, and they would send me digital via email photos of hard ones, ones they had troubles dating. I can tell you I took more than 2 seconds looking at those. And, before you ask, I was giving them outside advice not authenticating the digital image.
David, the guy who attacks the authenticators also doesn't count "In The Presence" authentications which take place when a PSA/DNA staff member witnesses an autograph and puts a sticker on the item.

It is the same service I see MLB Authentic authenticators do at trade shows all the time. You can eat up a lot of numbers really quickly with such a service.

They also do not appreciate when you authenticate a common autograph is takes seconds, while more obscure autographs often take a lot of time.
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Joel Alpert
AM Sports Marketing Group
am@alpert.net

@TheJoelAlpert

Actively buying unique vintage sports memorabilia, genuine autographs of Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, Mickey Mantle and others plus old US currency...
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  #15  
Old 05-26-2012, 08:18 PM
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xpress34 xpress34 is offline
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Default Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trsent View Post
David, the guy who attacks the authenticators also doesn't count "In The Presence" authentications which take place when a PSA/DNA staff member witnesses an autograph and puts a sticker on the item.

It is the same service I see MLB Authentic authenticators do at trade shows all the time. You can eat up a lot of numbers really quickly with such a service.

They also do not appreciate when you authenticate a common autograph is takes seconds, while more obscure autographs often take a lot of time.
Wow Joel -

You really know how to read, huh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xpress34
I understand they do player signings and such, but even with those basically pre-certified items, it wouldn't dent these numbers that much. It's not like they are getting a couple of thousand 'in person' signed items each day.
So yes, I DID take that into account. Without knowing how many people they employ (as I also mentioned), it is impossible to narrow it down to a 'specific' number, but even if every auto/certification was 'in person', there is still time involved to sticker the item, record the cert number, write the cert, enter it into the database, etc, etc.

No matter how you slice it, the numbers don't add up.

And again, I am not even figuring in time for TOUGH to cert autos, how long they spend GRADING a card (which I presume is part of the numbers they include in the 'certified' items count) or the time spent on bad items or items they can't quite certify but won't call 'fakes' either.

I am ONLY using the number of items they claim to have certified which implies items that they have authenticated, numbered, put in the database, etc. I would imaging that the number of BAD items they handle is at least 25% or more of the items they have 'certified' which would be approx another 5,000,00 items handled over the past 14 years.

So don't tell me what I 'appreciate' or don't take into consideration before you actually READ what I wrote.

- Smitty
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lumber_jack_bat_co - on eBay

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  #16  
Old 05-26-2012, 08:32 PM
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xpress34 xpress34 is offline
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Default Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

P.S. - don't forget that based on a 24 hour (around the clock) work cycle, the numbers they give break down to almost 4,000 items certified a day.

If it's only 8 hour days (even 7 days a week), that jumps that total to close to 12,000 items a day that they are claiming they are certifying.

I'm sorry if the hard numbers don't agree with many members love of the authenticators, but math is a PURE science and these numbers don't jive.

I'll even give you this scenario:

Let's presume they have 1,000 employees (which I'm pretty certain is an absurd #). 1,000 employees x 20 seconds is 20,000 seconds / 60 seconds is 333.3 minutes / 60 minutes is roughly 5.5 hours per item (on a 24 hour clock/7 days a week). But on an 8 hour clock (even staying with 7 days a week) that drops to about 1 hr 45 minutes per item.

That wouldn't be a bad number, but when you take out all the little things - again, receiving/unpacking, labeling, typing cert, repacking/shipping, entering into database, etc I would imagine that eats up a good chunk of that time.

If you and others want to continue to believe that they absolutely give EVERY item EVERY ounce of time and consideration that they deserve, I believe you are sorely mistaken.

And to David - nothing against you, but having grown up in Dallas during Beckett's rise in the 80's, I have my issues with them as well. The only one I will discuss here is the fact that since they joined the Graded Card Market - and being they are THE Price Guide in the hobby - isn't it a bit of a Conflict of Interest to Price their OWN Graded Cards higher than anyone else's? If you wnat to PM David I'd be glad to tell you about some things that took place in the DFW area 'back in the day'.

All the best -

Smitty
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SMITTY - Thornton, CO
lumber_jack_bat_co - on eBay

"I'd die for her and she lives for me."
Cowboys and Angels - Dustin Lynch
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  #17  
Old 05-26-2012, 10:39 PM
David David is offline
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Default Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

I wasn't criticizing anyone, though was commenting on the numbers.

I've heard all the conflict of interest complains against all the places. MEARS auctions, PSA/DNA used to own auction houses, what you said about Beckett. I generally judge things by the quality of the final product. No conflict of interest and incompetence can go hand in hand sometimes.

For good or bad, places like PSA or Beckett exist to make money. I'm not justifying or excusing anything, just saying.
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  #18  
Old 05-26-2012, 11:19 PM
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trsent trsent is offline
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Default Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xpress34 View Post
P.S. - don't forget that based on a 24 hour (around the clock) work cycle, the numbers they give break down to almost 4,000 items certified a day.

If it's only 8 hour days (even 7 days a week), that jumps that total to close to 12,000 items a day that they are claiming they are certifying.

I'm sorry if the hard numbers don't agree with many members love of the authenticators, but math is a PURE science and these numbers don't jive.

I'll even give you this scenario:

Let's presume they have 1,000 employees (which I'm pretty certain is an absurd #). 1,000 employees x 20 seconds is 20,000 seconds / 60 seconds is 333.3 minutes / 60 minutes is roughly 5.5 hours per item (on a 24 hour clock/7 days a week). But on an 8 hour clock (even staying with 7 days a week) that drops to about 1 hr 45 minutes per item.

That wouldn't be a bad number, but when you take out all the little things - again, receiving/unpacking, labeling, typing cert, repacking/shipping, entering into database, etc I would imagine that eats up a good chunk of that time.

If you and others want to continue to believe that they absolutely give EVERY item EVERY ounce of time and consideration that they deserve, I believe you are sorely mistaken.

And to David - nothing against you, but having grown up in Dallas during Beckett's rise in the 80's, I have my issues with them as well. The only one I will discuss here is the fact that since they joined the Graded Card Market - and being they are THE Price Guide in the hobby - isn't it a bit of a Conflict of Interest to Price their OWN Graded Cards higher than anyone else's? If you wnat to PM David I'd be glad to tell you about some things that took place in the DFW area 'back in the day'.

All the best -

Smitty
In other news, have forum rules changed where you can put your eBay seller name in your signature? I was told it is against the rules to promote your outside business on this discussion forum.

By the way, I try to read what you wrote, but it just gets too confusing. You trying to audit PSA/DNA's breakdown of what they have authenticated in over ten years or more, and you take everything literally. Their track record is by far the best in the business and for some reason you keep looking for issues that you can only speculate on.

I start to think you are confusing figures from all of Collector Universe's records - They include PSA/DNA, PSA, PCGS, PCGS Currency, PSA Bats and I'm sure I'm missing something.
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Joel Alpert
AM Sports Marketing Group
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@TheJoelAlpert

Actively buying unique vintage sports memorabilia, genuine autographs of Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, Mickey Mantle and others plus old US currency...
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  #19  
Old 05-27-2012, 01:18 AM
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xpress34 xpress34 is offline
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Default Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trsent View Post
In other news, have forum rules changed where you can put your eBay seller name in your signature? I was told it is against the rules to promote your outside business on this discussion forum.

By the way, I try to read what you wrote, but it just gets too confusing. You trying to audit PSA/DNA's breakdown of what they have authenticated in over ten years or more, and you take everything literally. Their track record is by far the best in the business and for some reason you keep looking for issues that you can only speculate on.

I start to think you are confusing figures from all of Collector Universe's records - They include PSA/DNA, PSA, PCGS, PCGS Currency, PSA Bats and I'm sure I'm missing something.
You mean like your tag that has been on forever promoting AM Sports Marketing? What a hypocritical statement.

And for the record, my eBay ID has been in my signature since the 1st day I was on GUU and I've seen many other members with their eBay IDs listed as well.

I take everything 'literally'? Of course I do when it comes to an AUTHENTICATOR. If they are going to post their numbers - which they DO - how can I NOT take them literally? If you don't take them and their authentications literally, then why are you trying to defend them against my comments.

And I'm not looking for issues, but when I saw that counter sitting at that kind of number? 19 million + items is a staggering amount of items to have been handled. Here's some more 'food for thought' to highlight just how staggering those numbers are:

If you decided to count to 1 million - and IF you could say each number in 1 second (which becomes impossible once you start getting into triple and quadruple digit numbers anyway) and you didn't stop, it would take you 11.5 DAYS (without sleeping, eating, etc to get there). There was a study done back in the 80's or 90's and they had a computer do exactly that - count to 1 million - saying each number out loud. Due to the longer numbers and the time it took to say each one, it took the computer almost 6 months - going 24 hours a day to get to 1 million.

Speculate? I think not. Too many documented cases of them getting it wrong or 'rubber stamping' items for big customers. And if you're going to say something like 'They should take care of bigger customer's' - don't. That is when the door opens for bigger customer's to float through questionable items. Dont think big customer's might do that? See the JO Sports debacle et al (that's Latin for 'and others' so you can keep up).

And AGAIN (because you obviously CAN'T read), I am NOT confusing anything. I am using a number that is CLEARLY posted on their HOME PAGE, and I stated (a few times actually since the first time I posted about this) that I am certain those numbers include Card Grading, Coins, etc., but as usual you only read what you want Joel.

I'm certain you defend them because you are probably a good customer of theirs and you don't want to say anything against them.

Everything I have laid out - AGAIN - is from numbers taken from THEIR page, not some 3rd party source, and if if 's not correct, then they can come here and defend themselves or correct the numbers.

You can keep trying to shoot holes in the arguments I've made, but the bottom line is that the ONLY number I have speculated on is how many employees they have. I revisited their site and on their 'experts' page, they list 22 people.

That got me to do more research which actually shoots holes in YOUR arguments, because I went the Collector's Universe page and when I selected the home page for PCGS (the Coin grading division), their home page and info states they have been around since 1985 and have certified over 24,000,000 coins. That alone points to the PSA, PSA/DNA page's number of over 19,000,000 items certified as having ONLY to do with the sports side of the business.

I'll just leave it at that.

And for what it's worth, I'm sorry that the written word, facts extrapolated (that means 'taken from') their own site and simple math is too confusing for you to follow.

But it doesn't matter what I say. You have your opinions - and you're welcome to them. But I have mine as well and if you don't like me expressing them, well that's just too bad.

Best wishes -

Smitty
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Christopher R Smith
SMITTY - Thornton, CO
lumber_jack_bat_co - on eBay

"I'd die for her and she lives for me."
Cowboys and Angels - Dustin Lynch
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  #20  
Old 05-27-2012, 07:16 AM
jppopma jppopma is offline
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Default Re: PSA/DNA, New Photomatch Service?

Smitty, Are you questioning the number of items they really have authenticated or thinking that they just slap stickers on items without doing very much research?

As for numbers, businesses and people have long been using estimates and not keeping track of every single action. Does anyone think that someone physically counted every person at the million man march? Back in the 80's when McDonald's had the running tally on number of people served, was that an exact and precise number based on a customer tally computer somewhere?

Regarding the original post, it looks like PSA/DNA likely wrote a COA and confirmed a photomatch that was provided by the owner.
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