Ebayer HelmetHead2 - Part Of The Problem...

[mvandor]

Re: Ebayer HelmetHead2 - Part Of The Problem...

call me crazy, but i've never felt that a player's "status in the NFL pecking order" was determined by the fmv of his autograph - if this were the case, i imagine "he hate me" would rank above some of the more accomplished nflers, no? btw, what does alworth playing his final years in dallas have to do with anything? you seem to imply that alworth's accomplishments were perhaps artificially inflated because of this....

but if you were simply saying alworth's sig isn't as valuable as other great players in the world of sig collecting, which wasn't clear to me in your previous post, i'll definitely take your word for it 'cause i know nothing about autographs.

some vintage helmet trivia - sammy baugh (pictured above) is wearing riddell's first helmet model, an rt (riddell tenite) which was made of transparent plastic. to give these helmet color the paint was applied to the inside of the shell rather than the outside which protected the paint job from hits and saved on upkeep.

the rk (riddell kra-lite) model followed and was pretty much identical in contour to the rt - but the rk was not transparent, it was molded from colored (boned white) plastic. yet although these helmets were almost identical in appearance it's usually very easy to tell them apart in photos.

the tenite (transparent) plastic was much softer than the rigid kra-lite plastic - as a result the tk helmet had a tendency to morph out of shape (often as a result of weather conditions and/or moisture). a classic example can be seen in the baugh photo - notice how the rivet areas of his helmet, which holds the interior cotton suspension webbing in place, are "dimpled". this occured because when this suspension webbing became wet (rain, sweat, etc.) it shrank pulling in the soft tenite plastic with it.

Geez are you an Alworth relative? Chill, man. I live in SD and of course am a Charger fan, and believe him to be the most graceful athletic WR of his generation if not beyond. I am a fan not a critic.

HOWEVER, NFL collecting values aren't determined by us NFL freaks that know every star that ever played and own everything NFL Films sells. Value is determined by broad public popularity, sometimes availability due to death. Lance doesn't command upper value because broad public NFL interest seldom looks to San Diego, a small market with no SB wins since they started the game.

My collection is at least in part an investment that I hope to get my money out of in 10-20 years, and given the big bucks spent on display cases aren't usually recoverable that'll be tough. My reference to pecking order simply referred to his sig's value in the marketplace. You'll recall I was considering buying a copy of his helmet for a SD signing, but he wanted something like $250 which is far too high for the value of his signed material in the marketplace.

I have a very nice customized mini helmet from him in my collection, just wanted to upgrade to a full size because he is one of my fav all-time Charger players. But I'm not mad with my collecting dollar, he just wanted too much.

[aeneas01]

Re: Ebayer HelmetHead2 - Part Of The Problem...

call me crazy, but i've never felt that a player's "status in the NFL pecking order" was determined by the fmv of his autograph - if this were the case, i imagine "he hate me" would rank above some of the more accomplished nflers, no? btw, what does alworth playing his final years in dallas have to do with anything? you seem to imply that alworth's accomplishments were perhaps artificially inflated because of this....

but if you were simply saying alworth's sig isn't as valuable as other great players in the world of sig collecting, which wasn't clear to me in your previous post, i'll definitely take your word for it 'cause i know nothing about autographs.

some vintage helmet trivia - sammy baugh (pictured above) is wearing riddell's first helmet model, an rt (riddell tenite) which was made of transparent plastic. to give these helmet color the paint was applied to the inside of the shell rather than the outside which protected the paint job from hits and saved on upkeep.

the rk (riddell kra-lite) model followed and was pretty much identical in contour to the rt - but the rk was not transparent, it was molded from colored (boned white) plastic. yet although these helmets were almost identical in appearance it's usually very easy to tell them apart in photos.

the tenite (transparent) plastic was much softer than the rigid kra-lite plastic - as a result the tk helmet had a tendency to morph out of shape (often as a result of weather conditions and/or moisture). a classic example can be seen in the baugh photo - notice how the rivet areas of his helmet, which holds the interior cotton suspension webbing in place, are "dimpled". this occured because when this suspension webbing became wet (rain, sweat, etc.) it shrank pulling in the soft tenite plastic with it.

[mvandor]

Re: Ebayer HelmetHead2 - Part Of The Problem...

gotta say mvandor, not sure what your "nfl pecking order" might look like but mine would definitely have lance alworth right up there - the guy was arguably the best receiver of the 60s, a 7-time pro bowler, a first-ballot hall of famer and a member of a super bowl winning team. simply put, he's one of the greatest pro football players of all time.

National collecting interest seldom finds its way to the San Diego Chargers players, LT is the first I've seen really attain much collectible value. Good example, Dan Fouts - Mr. Charger - you can pick up his signed stuff for a song compared to Payton, Unitas, Nitschke, Reggie White - even the prolific signer Montana. The Chargers don't resonate with the general public. And Alworth was at the end of his career and talents by the time he hit Dallas.

[aeneas01]

Re: Ebayer HelmetHead2 - Part Of The Problem...

"Is it your understanding he resells for Helmet Hut? Or IS he Helmet Hut?"

helmethead2, like many others outlets, sells helmet hut reproductions - he is not helmet hut nor should his "onfield productions" website be confused with helmet hut's "gridiron memories" website.

"I've always noted some of his listings show an example of the relevant reproduction, others, like your examples, just show the players' photos. I assume he does this because a photo of the repro wouldn't match at all in these cases."

many of his ads just show a picture of a helmet, such as his ads for custom college lids, but even these are stock photos and not the actual helmet the buyer will receive. when he first started out he primarily sold new and used helmets which he would dress in whatever manner the buyer wanted - he would make them to order and they would take forever to deliver. he's since branched out to selling helmet hut reproductions, helmet decals, mini helmets, etc.

but as far as his use of photos of star players is concerned, i don't agree with your assumption - i think he knows the value of advertising his goods using a photo of a famous player and i also think he intentionally tries to mislead people into believing that his reproductions, or rather helmet hut's reproductions, are the same type of helmets those in the photos once wore.

"His feedback always red flagged me, there are other seller's I'd use first."

yeah, from his feedback comments it's clear (at least to me) that he's a bully - if you are hoping for a flexible and understanding seller that will do everything in his/her power to make you happy with your purchase, i would suggest looking elsewhere.

"At one time I was considering buying an Alworth repro for a signing, but Alworth wanted way too much considering his status in the NFL pecking order. Some sellers were hawking an RK, some a TK, and I had no clue which was correct (if either). Any chance you know?"

gotta say mvandor, not sure what your "nfl pecking order" might look like but mine would definitely have lance alworth right up there - the guy was arguably the best receiver of the 60s, a 7-time pro bowler, a first-ballot hall of famer and a member of a super bowl winning team. simply put, he's one of the greatest pro football players of all time.

as far as what helmet he wore is concerned, he wore a tk for most (all?) of his career - i've never seen a photo of him wearing the older rk (bubble ear) model.

[mvandor]

Re: Ebayer HelmetHead2 - Part Of The Problem...

Is it your understanding he resells for Helmet Hut? Or IS he Helmet Hut?

I've always noted some of his listings show an example of the relevant reproduction, others, like your examples, just show the players' photos. I assume he does this because a photo of the repro wouldn't match at all in these cases.

His feedback always red flagged me, there are other seller's I'd use first.

At one time I was considering buying an Alworth repro for a signing, but Alworth wanted way too much considering his status in the NFL pecking order. Some sellers were hawking an RK, some a TK, and I had no clue which was correct (if either). Any chance you know?

[aeneas01]

Re: Ebayer HelmetHead2 - Part Of The Problem...

after rereading my post (which i should have done before hitting submit!) it occured to me that my point might not have been very clear. so, for the record, i'm not suggesting that helmethead2 is trying to pass of helmut hut reproductions as actual game helmets worn by the pros pictured in his ads. as a matter of fact, i think it would be pretty clear to most that he sells custom reproductions.

my gripe is that he (imo) dishonestly implies that the helmets he sells are almost identical reproductions of what the stars pictured in his ads wore - which, obviously, just isn't the case. further, his ads also strike me as a bait and switch given the additional facemask upgrade charge.

[aeneas01]

helmethead2 (aka onfield productions) is another guy that's certainly not helping improve the collective reputation of those that deal in sports collectibles - and while his misrepresentations may not be as outlandish and of the same magnitude as other notables such as lambeualeeper ("This helmet was issued to Dan Marino for on-field GAME USE during the 1998 season."), he certainly is not entirely upfront about the items he offers. most (all?) seasoned collectors would have no trouble figuring out his game but newcomers to the hobby, or those just looking for a nice gift to give the sportsfan in their life, could be easily taken. imo he intentionally misleads potential buyers.

for example:

here's his ad for a "1977 jack lambert tk suspension football helmet" which he claims is "...the real thing; the exact same equipment used each and every saturday and sunday afternoon during football's glorious "golden era"..." - the problem with this particular ad is lambert never wore a tk suspension helmet while with the steelers (he wore a rawlings "headliner"). further, this helmet is far from the "exact same equipment" worn by the pros - it's a helmet hut reproduction. and while helmet hut does make very nice reproductions to look at they would never pass noscae safety tests for game use. additionally, the buy it now price will not get you the facemask pictured as the as implies - this is an upgrade and available at an additional cost.

i contacted helmethead2 and informed him that lambert never wore a riddell which, needless to say, i was sure he already knew. he replied with "yes he did" and never responded to any more of my emails. as a matter of fact, it's clear he doesn't like to be questioned as evidenced in his feedback...





this ad is particularly laughable - a "terry bradshaw "maxpro" style suspension helmet" - i'll tell ya, it really takes some cajones to call a suspension helmet a "maxpro style" lid. i guess helmethead2 slaps a maxpro decal on the front and his work is done. for those of you that don't know, the clearshell maxpro model bradshaw wore (pictured) is a very rare helmet - further, it is not close to being a suspension helmet. what helmethead2 is in fact offering is a helmet hut tk suspension reproduction dressed as bradshaw's lid - as above, the reproduction facemask is extra.





gale sayers only wore a wilson during his career at chicago - but, hey, let's not let that get in the way of this $225 "1965-1971 gale sayers tk suspension football helmet".





here's a "1945-1952 sammy baugh rt suspension football helmet... the real thing; the exact same equipment used each and every..." - not quite. the real rt suspension helmet baugh wore was made of tenite, a transparent plastic, fashioned from 3 molded sections. the reproduction for sale, on the other hand, is not made from transparent plastic nor is it a 3-piece shell.





but, wait a minute, this is a forum for "game used" collectibles - very true but, imo, it won't be long before some helmet hut reproductions, with a little added elbow grease, start hitting the "game issued" or "game used" market - especially given that helmet hut has introduced tk reproductions. ebayer flipsyr has been testing the waters for at least a year now...