What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

[aeneas01]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

I never knew that the 1972 factory-fresh Riddell's didn't have the white striping; in that case then that Macgregor is certainly old enough to have come from that era. I've never seen one that didn't have the white stripes, so I assumed that the Macgregor would have been like the Joe Washington Kelley's on Curtis's site where all decals and striping were under the shell.

by the time joe washington joined the redskins, the skins had been sporting their "new" design for 10 years and factory stripes had generally become the norm. and, of course, macgregor had quit the helmet business by then. the joe washington "kelley" lid featured at helmut hut you mention is a real beauty, a real beauty - hh has also provided a great read (as usual) along with the photos. anyway, as i mentioned, it would be interesting to know the details about the changeover in helmet design - if in fact the white stripes were an afterthought.

for many helmet helmet collectors, including myself, clear shells are special. but when evaluating these things they always warrant a closer look given their uniqueness and the fact that decals were commonly applied to both the inside and outside of the shell.

for example, one might feel compelled to quickly disqualify an earl campbell longhorns "gamer" appearing at auction if the steer (bevo) decals were applied to the outside of the shell. but campbell did indeed wear just that at times - a clear shell macgregor with the decals applied to the exterior even though texas generally wore clear shells with the decals applied to the interior. the same goes for terry bradshaw - he wore a clear shell max pro for a while when with the steelers. at times the decals were applied to the exterior of the shell and at times the decals were applied to the inside of the shell.

and then there's the back of the helmet number thing - generally numbers were applied to the exterior of clear shells for obvious reasons. but there were helmets that had the numbers applied to the interior - i own one such helmet, a nebraska gamer. speaking of clear shells, there are a couple of nice ones currently listed on ebay although they appear to be salesman samples as opposed to gamers..

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=270290953396

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=270290942762

...

[John in KY]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

i don't think the lack of white striping rules the helmet out as an authentic redskins lid - imo the clear shell could very well be the real deal from the early 70s (1972, 1973). the side "profile" logos appear to be nothing other than authentic and, although difficult to tell from the photo, the color shade is accurate.

when the redskins introduced their new helmet style in 1972, many (all?) of these lids were fitted with a single factory applied yellow stripe, no white stripes. in fact it appears to me that the addition of white striping may have even been an afterthought, a last minute change to an original design that included just a single stripe as featured on their previous helmets. whatever the case, riddell did eventually add factory installed white stripping as evidenced by the "riddell" heat stamp applied over the striping.

but it would be interesting to know exactly what went on with the redskins new helmet design in 1972 - not only does it appear that white stripes were added after the fact, but many, many photos from 1972 show the yellow stripe applied above the rivets as early as the start of the 1972 season. this is odd because one would expect to see factory applied yellow striping, with rivets showing, on these new helmets. could it be that many of the helmets the redskins wore in 1972 were actually their yellow helmets painted maroon and fitted with yellow striping that covered the rivets? curtis at helmethut is a huge redskins fan and is probably the best person around able to shed more light on this - i've contacted him and will share anything he offers.

here are a few photos of early redskins helmets that show the white striping above the riddell heat stamp, stripes that were not factory installed. and a redskins helmet without white striping (saturated with tobacco smoke) such as the clear shell...




speaking of the redskins new helmet design introduced in 1972, there's an interesting story behind it - especially in terms of "political correctness". from the "redskins encyclopedia" by michael richman:

an enduring logo: in the early 1970s, walter "blackie" wetzel, president of the national congress of american indians and chairman of the blackfoot tribe, urged the redskins to replace the "r" logo on their helmets with the head of an indian chief. from photos he presented to the redskins officials of indian chiefs in full headdress, a composite was developed that gave birth to a new logo on redskins helmets in the 1972 season. it exists to this day. i said' "i'd like to see an indian on your helmets," wetzel said in the washington post on january 26, 2002. "it made us all so proud to have an indian on a big-team... it's only a small group of radicals who oppose those names, indians are proud of indians."

"blackie" passed away in 2003 at the age 88.

http://www.queencitynews.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1826

...

I never knew that the 1972 factory-fresh Riddell's didn't have the white striping; in that case then that Macgregor is certainly old enough to have come from that era. I've never seen one that didn't have the white stripes, so I assumed that the Macgregor would have been like the Joe Washington Kelley's on Curtis's site where all decals and striping were under the shell.

[aeneas01]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

i don't think the lack of white striping rules the helmet out as an authentic redskins lid - imo the clear shell could very well be the real deal from the early 70s (1972, 1973). the side "profile" logos appear to be nothing other than authentic and, although difficult to tell from the photo, the color shade is accurate.

when the redskins introduced their new helmet style in 1972, many (all?) of these lids were fitted with a single factory applied yellow stripe, no white stripes. in fact it appears to me that the addition of white striping may have even been an afterthought, a last minute change to an original design that included just a single stripe as featured on their previous helmets. whatever the case, riddell did eventually add factory installed white stripping as evidenced by the "riddell" heat stamp applied over the striping.

but it would be interesting to know exactly what went on with the redskins new helmet design in 1972 - not only does it appear that white stripes were added after the fact, but many, many photos from 1972 show the yellow stripe applied above the rivets as early as the start of the 1972 season. this is odd because one would expect to see factory applied yellow striping, with rivets showing, on these new helmets. could it be that many of the helmets the redskins wore in 1972 were actually their yellow helmets painted maroon and fitted with yellow striping that covered the rivets? curtis at helmethut is a huge redskins fan and is probably the best person around able to shed more light on this - i've contacted him and will share anything he offers.

here are a few photos of early redskins helmets that show the white striping above the riddell heat stamp, stripes that were not factory installed. and a redskins helmet without white striping (saturated with tobacco smoke) such as the clear shell...




speaking of the redskins new helmet design introduced in 1972, there's an interesting story behind it - especially in terms of "political correctness". from the "redskins encyclopedia" by michael richman:

an enduring logo: in the early 1970s, walter "blackie" wetzel, president of the national congress of american indians and chairman of the blackfoot tribe, urged the redskins to replace the "r" logo on their helmets with the head of an indian chief. from photos he presented to the redskins officials of indian chiefs in full headdress, a composite was developed that gave birth to a new logo on redskins helmets in the 1972 season. it exists to this day. i said' "i'd like to see an indian on your helmets," wetzel said in the washington post on january 26, 2002. "it made us all so proud to have an indian on a big-team... it's only a small group of radicals who oppose those names, indians are proud of indians."

"blackie" passed away in 2003 at the age 88.

http://www.queencitynews.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1826

...

[princip]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

Well it probably went for $250 because I don't believe it is a Washington Redskins helmet. It is missing the two white stripes which would also be under the shell like the yellow center stripe and the logos. The color appears to be too dark - more like the Spear or Feather helmets from the 1960s than the burgundy helmets used starting in 1972.

I suspect it is a college or high school helmet for a team named the Redskins, but not from the NFL's Washington Redskins.

Yep, good call. On second look, that must be the case. However, more/better pics are needed.

[John in KY]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

btw here's a beautiful and ultra-rare washington redskins clear shell macgregor gamer that recently sold on ebay - the seller ended his auction early and, when i contacted him, told me that he had accepted $250 for it. someone got a very nice deal...




.....

Well it probably went for $250 because I don't believe it is a Washington Redskins helmet. It is missing the two white stripes which would also be under the shell like the yellow center stripe and the logos. The color appears to be too dark - more like the Spear or Feather helmets from the 1960s than the burgundy helmets used starting in 1972.

I suspect it is a college or high school helmet for a team named the Redskins, but not from the NFL's Washington Redskins.

[princip]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

Thanks Robert. I did get in touch with Jeff Fedenko, he had some questions about the waterslide decal process, since, he does all of his helmets with thin reverse adhesive decals. A lot more expensive, however, a lot less labor intensive.

Thank you for posting that Redskins clear shell, I am on the hunt for one myself. Can't believe he ended that early at $250, with an original Dungard too.

BTW, I am working up a website for some of my other projects and collectables. Mostly Redskins and Seahawks items. I will post a link when I get things up and running.

I will be lurking around here more often as well. Great resource.

[aeneas01]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

hello michael - i remember reading about you and your helmet at uniwatch earlier in the year, it was a nice write up. do you happen to know jeff fedenko and ray lusk? like you, jeff and ray do an absolutely wonderful job reconditioning clear shell helmets, artsists really. for those forum members interested in clear shells and michael's work, here's a link to the uniwatch article...

http://www.uniwatchblog.com/2008/04/07/washington-monument/

btw here's a beautiful and ultra-rare washington redskins clear shell macgregor gamer that recently sold on ebay - the seller ended his auction early and, when i contacted him, told me that he had accepted $250 for it. someone got a very nice deal...




.....

[princip]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

Just thought I would share some pics of my Seahawks Joe Washington clear shell project. Because, this I believe is the only Seahawks Kelley clear shell in existance. Of course, Joe Washington never played for the Seahawks, yet, if he did, this is probably what his helmet would have looked like, however, with a royal blue facemask.

http://www.greenglare.com/images/kcs1.jpg

http://www.greenglare.com/images/kcs3.jpg

http://www.greenglare.com/images/kcs5.jpg

[aeneas01]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

someone got a nice deal on a michigan clear shell (kelley) gamer...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260296869894#ebayphotohosting

...

[aeneas01]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

the forum's own larry pelliccioni was kind enough to email me photos of some of his beautiful clear shells for my database but, i have to say, it would be a crime not to share these gems with you guys...















...

[DrJ]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

Thanks aeneas, yes looking at your examples it looks like $900-$1,200 will get you a nice clear shell most of the time. I was surprised to see that the WFL helmet was quite a bit lower in price. FYI - the Texas A&M example you show is one that I had owned and sold. Take care.

[aeneas01]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

for the most part all clear shell helmets had the decaling (side logos and stripes) underneath the transparent shell and the rear numbers were usually applied to the outside of the shell. if the rear numbers were appiled to the inside of the shell then the helmet could not be recycled and used by a different player with a different number. yet, having said that, i do have a nebraska clear shell with the number applied to the inside of the shell.

earl campbell was known to have worn a clear shell longhorns helmet with the longhorn decals applied to the outside. but imo this was probably a replacement helmet, just a plain white clear shell that the em was able to get his hands on quickly and apply decals to. but you are right - the sc sun helmets i showed above have the decals applied to the exterior of the shell - but he lions helmet has the decals applied to the inside.

glad to hear that there are other lions clear shells out there - as i've mentioned i've only ever seen one - a little surprising considering the lions were a team that embraced the clear shell and many lions players wore it.

btw i would love to see a photo of the vikings clear shell - that thing should be a real beauty! not to mention extremely rare! if you do end up trading for it please email me a few photos of it! if you are indeed as computer challenged as you say, i will walk you through the process!

drj:

you were dead on as far as what these helmets usually fetch - you were also dead on regarding condition. the interior leather padding of these helmets (kelley and maxpro) are attached to the shell with tiny plastic pegs which often break. it's not uncommon to see clear shells with broken pegs (resulting in loose padding) or missing padding - such helmets obviously don't fetch as much as those with perfectly intact padding. also, the clear shells were around during the dungard facemask era - it's not uncommon to see a clear shell hit the market with a classic original dungard. these tend to fetch even more.

...

[Larry Pelliccioni]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

Robert,
Great stuff, thank you for all of the information that your post provided. Were I not so challenged on a computer I would try to find ways to show you and others the helmets I speak of. My Southern California Sun helmet has the logo inside the clear shell as well as my Detroit Lions. On the Lions, the only thing outside the shell is the player's number. Although rare as I was in the process of replying to a collector about a potential purchase of the one I have (and considered a keeper) I managed to find another one, so take heart, they are out there. I also have been offered a clear shell Minnesota Vikings which I will probably buy or trade for.
Pricing is such a sticky wicket unless there were two items so identical. In the end price is a function of what the seller wants to sell it for and the buyer wants to pay for it I guess.
It is interesting to see the fluctuation in pricing on some of the helmets you have shown and once again Robert I thank you for adding to my education, your comments are both valued and appreciated.
Larry Pelliccioni

[aeneas01]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

larry -

imo vintage clear shells are among the nicest and rarest helmets in circulation and tend to run the gamut as far as selling prices are concerned - i've seen them virtually ignored at auction and have also seen them cause bidding wars. one thing is for sure - there are a few clear shell collectors out there willing to spend whatever it takes to win one at auction and when they converge on the same helmet it can go for a very nice amount.

your lions clear shell is very, very rare - i've only come across one at auction over the years. as a matter of fact, for whatever reason, vintage detroit lions helmets seem to be very rare in general and usually fetch a nice amount - even the vintage detroit lions helmet lamps made by riddell. surprisingly, sc sun clear shell helmets are more common - i've seen at least a half a dozen at auction through the years.

i don't think that the manufacturer (kelley, max pro, macgregor) of the helmet drives the price as much as condition, team and/or model (leather padding vs vinyl for example). but you just never know when it comes to these babies. a few years ago an authentic, vintage clear shell longhorns helmet dressed to look just like earl campbell's sold for close to $4,000 - the seller was very up front and honest about the helmet being an "authentic reproduction" and never belonging to ec but it attracted a bunch of bidders and a very high price imo.

here are some clear shells that have sold at auction over the years including the detroit lions helmets i mentioned and a couple of sc sun helmets...





here a some more clear shells that have sold at auction....






=============================

i want to also add that there are a couple of guys out there that have had tremendous success creating clear shell reproductions - they get their hands on a clear shell lid, strip it down until it is nothing more than the transparent shell, remove the padding and then go to work. frankly, these guys are nothing short of genuine artists and the end result of their work is stunning. fortunately these guys are also among the nicest and most honest collectors around and on the rare occasion they do put one of their lids up for auction they go to great lengths to describe them as reproductions (even tho they could pass for authentic).

on the other side of the fence you have a guy out there that collects clear shells and turns around and misrepresents the hell out of many of them. what makes this especially nauseating is that he owns a tremendous collection of authentic clear shells and should be above this crappola - but greed has obviously proven too much of a temptation.

below are a few of the helmets that he's misrepresented. he purchased the atlanta falcons clear shell (left) for $125 on ebay - it was listed by a woman who said it was her husband's, that he wore it when he played pop warner. it is indeed one of the youth models macgregor produced for kids during that era. the crook relisted it (right) on ebay as a game used falcons lid that he obtained from a sports bar in houston - asking price $1,300. the delaware helmet (left) sold on ebay for $295 by a guy who said he went to delaware, was in the booster club and band, and was given the helmet by the team. in this auction he also included other delaware momentos including the delaware button (pictured), a banner, programs and other items. the crook relisted it (right) as a game used michigan helmet that he had obtained from team sources. i was able to contact bidders and the helmet ended up selling for far less than what would be expected for an authentic michigan clear shell - but it did go for $595. the vt helmet lamp (right) was listed on ebay by a well known collector, it sold for $295. the crook removed all of the lamp parts, attempted to remove all evidence (scarring) of the lamp and relisted it (left) as a helmet that he had obtained along with other helmets from a private collection. asking price - $1,900.





...

[DrJ]

Re: What is the value of NFL and WFL clear shell...

Based on what I can recall seeing clear shells go for, I would estimate between $900 and $1,200. This is if they are all original and have player identifiers (but are not a star player, local favorite, etc). I'm not as familiar with WFL though - it might carry a premium. Aeneas would probably be best equiped to answer for you as I think he has mentioned that he keeps a database of helmets sold on the market. He's hard to beat for any helmet questions in fact . Just my opinion on the pricing, hope that helps.