A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

[sox83cubs84]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

Yeah...those as well as the various dealers with promotional flair. Not just Mr. Mint, but others such as Evan Gorodetsky, the self-proclaimed "World's Most Handsome Dealer". As it turned out, the "handsome" part wasn't supposed to be about his looks, but his willingness to "hand some" cash to you for your quality cards.

Dave Miedema

[flaco1801]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

In the early days of collecting game used baseball, the coin and stamp dealers quickly jumped in to keep from being extinct.....they bought and sold with no passion except for the love of money...Dave, remember all the SCD ads from coin dealers....

[zybu_s]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

The threads are a perfect example of why GUF is such a valuable resource to the game-used collecting members.

Great stuff!

[Baseball83]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

I agree with the "uniquiness" of a game used item. There is only one of that item. As a collector, I won't buy it unless the seller can prove that "uniquiness" first. Yes, that means that I now pass on many, many items. But I am much more comfortable with what I buy.

[gingi79]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

I agree. Wilson and Rawlings made salesman samples without NOBs in the late 70s-80s, which could easily be altered. Fast forward to the NBA Champions of the early 90s and the "Pro-cuts" of today.

Also, I have all of the original Star cards of the mid 80s that I bought from mail order in the mid 80s. The re-pressings from the Star Co. made them near worthless. Of course they weren't counterfeits, beacause they were re-made by the company.

Great post BTPH. One of the issues with modification and misrepresentation of jerseys from the last 30 plus years is that as we, the collector, become more knowledgeable of what to look for, red flags and issues and graciously share that information with other collectors, the enemy gains some brains as well.

Part of the greatness of this site when I joined was that we had some newbies, some people like me who wanted to learn and grow a base knowledge, some super collectors, long time dealers, relatively new dealers and then the truest gems, the guys like Murf and Dave (to name a few.) Hell BPH alone is worth a cover charge of you ever collected an LS bat.

For the most part, people on this site share everything. (Ok sometimes, TOO much lol) While that may allow for a few extra nuggets of truth to fall into the wrong hands, I have found we are militant in our hatred for fakes, knockoffs, frauds, added wear, added use, mis-appropriated seasons, name/number changes and any shennanigans, monkey business or tomfoolery. No one is above reproach, no one is shielded based upon prior deals or history. You mess with one of us, 40 more will horsewhip you.

For example, BTPH posted 3 different specific things to look out for when purchasing an item from a team in the MLB, NBA and NFL respectively. It also sadly illustrates that jerseys from 32 years ago may be altered or misrepresented just like a Pujols today.

Lastly, the Star card thing rings true in every other hobby I have been in. Action, the company that produces NASCAR die cast re-issued every car that became valuable in the secondary market. Prices dropped by 80% in the span of 3 months. Topps tried to re-issue their best cards with pieces of game used material included.

Game used stuff, no matter how many are worn, can't ever be replicated. Michael Jordan comes out of retirement tomorrow? Jersey prices go UP rather than down. 20 years from now, bats used by Pujols or Jeter or Arod can't be issued. I dropped all other hobbies because of this fact: There is only one of this item and it cannot change when a company gets greedy.

[sammy]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

That is a very interesting story.

[Neal]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

I think fake gu bats are even easier. Just buy a issued bat and do 5 min of research online and sell it on this site.

and sell it as game used or game ready?

If used, how does one create MLB use?

[1831whiteswan]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

Along this same line -

I always wondered why the auction houses or companies that sell gamers will not tell/list where the item came from or how they obtained the item. I believe they should be required to let potential buyers or bidders know how the item ended up in the auction or who sent the item in. The companies should be as transparent as possible and help buyers make educated purchases. Where else can you lay down some serious $$$ with such little information on making the purchase.

Seems like common sense to me - other thoughts??

[Baseball83]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

What I am happier with is some of the newer approaches that some organizations and companies have adopted. For instance, when I buy a jersey from Meigray or MLB, I look for a specific game that I can identify when the jersey was used. The provenance is impeccable and a photomatch is usually possible. Unless the jersey passes these two tests, then I stay away.

[BrewCrewSackers]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

I think fake gu bats are even easier. Just buy a issued bat and do 5 min of research online and sell it on this site.

[commando]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

Photomatching is great when possible, but not easy for vintage jerseys. Something that collectors don't do much anymore is to wear their game-used jerseys. But in the 1970s and 80s, it was common to see countless people at card shows and ball games wearing actual game-used knit jerseys. As a matter of fact, up until the mid-1980s, game-used flannels were often less expensive than newer knits because the flannels weren't as comfortable to wear by the fans!

[Baseball83]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

I agree that provenance is paramount. But with all of the doctoring that everyone is mentioning, there is no substitute for photomatch. My concern moving forward is that there are the unscrupulous that are even forging "photomatched" items. The forensic component of collecting game worn jerseys is beyond the scope of fun in the hobby. Unfortunately at the prices that people are asking for these items, the I am shifting the burdon to the seller to prove it first. Business as usual will not work with me anymore.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

I'm glad you found that link.... I don't have any SCDs from the early 1990s at this point.

I noticed another thread discussing MEARS and their grading criteria. Shouldn't a grading company be careful when they evaluate McAuliffes and Sand Knits? In the sportscard world, most well-known authenticators will not grade "Star Company" basketball cards from the 1980s because they were reprinted. Unless a McAuliffe Red Sox Fisk jersey has some great provenance, should an evaluator even offer an opinion (other than it came from the factory?)

I agree. Wilson and Rawlings made salesman samples without NOBs in the late 70s-80s, which could easily be altered. Fast forward to the NBA Champions of the early 90s and the "Pro-cuts" of today.

Also, I have all of the original Star cards of the mid 80s that I bought from mail order in the mid 80s. The re-pressings from the Star Co. made them near worthless. Of course they weren't counterfeits, beacause they were re-made by the company.

[commando]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

Yes, 3 minutes on google helped. Geoff Wayne was his alias. His government name was Randall Lee Marshall. Can't believe his name has never been mentioned on this forum. Read this link...scroll down about a quarter of the way. Juicy...
http://books.google.com/books?id=_B4...rshall&f=false

I'm glad you found that link.... I don't have any SCDs from the early 1990s at this point.

I noticed another thread discussing MEARS and their grading criteria. Shouldn't a grading company be careful when they evaluate McAuliffes and Sand Knits? In the sportscard world, most well-known authenticators will not grade "Star Company" basketball cards from the 1980s because they were reprinted. Unless a McAuliffe Red Sox Fisk jersey has some great provenance, should an evaluator even offer an opinion (other than it came from the factory?)

[sox83cubs84]

Re: A Chilling Quote from Murf Denny in 1981

I remember the whole Geoff Wayne/Randy Marshall affair, as I was subpeoaned (possible misspelling ) to testify regarding a lawsuit that was filed by a collector who was taken.

I also remember SCD doing an interview with Marshall a few years later. Marshall's secret to going so long without discovery (he was doing this in the 1980s)? He took advantage of the fledgling game used hobby in the early 1980s and, in his own words, "established himself as an expert". Not so easy to do today without the pedigree, but easy enough close to 30 years ago.

Dave Miedema