BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

[sox83cubs84]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

A friend of mine, now deceased, got jabbed by a ghostsigner when he promoted shows in central Ohio about 20-25 years ago. He had a ffather/son signing tandem of Gus and Buddy Bell (Gus was still alive, and Buddy was still active). The two asked to take their mail order with them, as each was attending a Super Bowl Party that evening. Gus signed his mail orders promptly and returned them to the promoters. However, and I'm not sure if this was with Buddy's knowledge or not, Bddy's agent inserted himself into the process and ghost-signed all of Buddy's mail order. When the promoters confronted him about it, he basically said "I'm his agent. I can do that." and refused to offer and compensation for the fake autographs. So, it can happen at a show, as well.


Dave Miedema

[marino13]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

On another note not having to do with game used material. A player that came through Louisville was signing autographs in the dugout, a little boy bought a regular issue card of the player to get it signed the player signed some chicken scratch and the boy took the card back to the card dealer at slugger field and complained because the "certified" autograph card of the same player he had in his case was signed beautifully and you could read every letter. The dealer took the certified and the card that the boy just had signed and took it to the dugout to ask the player why the signatures vary so extremely. The player looked at the dealer and said oh that card..... the company mailed me 1000 of those cards and I had a girl I was dating at the time sign them......so much for the back of the card reading "signed in the presence of a rep from _________ card company"

Now this makes PERFECT sense when PSA/DNA rejected one of my pre-certified autographed cards a while back.

I was like "how is that even possible?"


(I was following the trend on how cool the case look and so forth. )

[NEFAN]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

On another note not having to do with game used material. A player that came through Louisville was signing autographs in the dugout, a little boy bought a regular issue card of the player to get it signed the player signed some chicken scratch and the boy took the card back to the card dealer at slugger field and complained because the "certified" autograph card of the same player he had in his case was signed beautifully and you could read every letter. The dealer took the certified and the card that the boy just had signed and took it to the dugout to ask the player why the signatures vary so extremely. The player looked at the dealer and said oh that card..... the company mailed me 1000 of those cards and I had a girl I was dating at the time sign them......so much for the back of the card reading "signed in the presence of a rep from _________ card company"

I know for sure that happens.

[moo5100@yahoo.com]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

I've always wondered how the companies made money after buying thousands of jerseys. Now it makes sense they bought them way under would-be market value

[Eric]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

Considering he was in the news again this week, I thought it was interesting to find this old post by Brad Wells...

[trsent]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

i just read the original interview of wells. can i post it? it actually has his cell phone number so I am hesitant.

Joel, thanks for the private message mentioning that Brad Wells mentioned my name in his 2009 interview now posted online. You don't have to copy the post - you can post a link to it.

I was notified of this document online yesterday by friends.

Brad Wells, for whatever reason, made a statement that someone was paying a bribe or something of that nature to I believe DonRuss and he couldn't remember who it was. He mumbled off a few names and then said something like: Maybe it was Joel Alpert.

I'll make a statement here for any who are concerned:

In my 25 plus years as a sports memorabilia dealer I have never knowingly sold any game used jerseys to any card company. If they bought from me under an alias on eBay I never knew about it. I never had contact with any of the buyers from any trading card company and the comment from Brad Wells that it may have been me bribing a trading card company to buy from me is totally incorrect because I have never had contact with a card company to sell them game used items.

My history with Brad Wells and James Brown buying pro-cuts from me on eBay was well documented on this forum many years ago. The community of Game Used Universe posted enough evidence against them back then for suspicious activities that it is just too bad it took as long as it did for someone to step in and do something about it.

If anyone would like to discuss this with me further, please email me at the email address listed below. I've been an active member of Game Used Universe since the early days and I am proud of us as a group trying to protect this industry.

[joelsabi]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

i just read the original interview of wells. can i post it? it actually has his cell phone number so I am hesitant.

[joelsabi]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

Playing devil's advocate with myself, maybe the companies thought they needed a paper trail. So they bought fake jerseys from third parties and took photos of the "used" jerseys to document them before cutting them up. Maybe it was worth the extra money to be able to show receipts and photos in case authorities ever suspected wrongdoing.

Still, if you believe Wells, you have to accept that Topps, UD and Panini all had the same MO. Not just one company, but all three decided that it's ok to use fake uniforms, but not too fake, just real looking enough to fool anyone who might inquire -- and they need to come from "reputable" sources, like ASI, in case anyone ever asks where they got the stuff.

I have a hard time buying that, but it will be interesting to see how forthcoming the card companies are about their sources.

choosing a dealer from the player association approved dealer list for game used products provided the paper-trail and CYA documentation for card companies should anyone questions the provenance of the product. i remember watching a video on youtube where Topps talked about this issue at the Nationals awhile back. I will post if i find the link.

I think Topps has a great system of documenting their Team USA GU products which gets them directly from Team USA. So there are some companies that provide great documentation (photos and videos) of the product prior to cutting them up.

[Eric]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

Something to remember-
These six dealers were charged with selling hundreds of fakes to the card companies last October. So technically, the card companies have been avoiding making statements about this issue for almost a full year.

A lot of people are saying "Let's wait to see what the card companies say about this." I have been trying to get answers since last year and have gotten no response.

At first the people from Panini (formerly Donruss) said "Let me look into it and we'll get back to you." Now they don't even respond.

According to the article in today's newspaper, Michael O'Keeffe from the NY Daily News can't get them to respond

It's not like they're just learning about the FBI case now. They have chosen not to respond to their consumers for 11 months... and counting.

And for those who say "Who cares," I'm glad you have that kind of money to throw around. Those packs are expensive. Upper Deck sold a pack of cards for $600.00 with guaranteed memorabilia card. Donruss sold for $500.00 its National Treasures series. Topps sold Paradigm packs for $350. They have a potential mess on their hands.

Read this piece from back in '07

http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2007/05/baseball_cards_.html

[suave1477]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

Playing devil's advocate with myself, maybe the companies thought they needed a paper trail. So they bought fake jerseys from third parties and took photos of the "used" jerseys to document them before cutting them up. Maybe it was worth the extra money to be able to show receipts and photos in case authorities ever suspected wrongdoing.

Still, if you believe Wells, you have to accept that Topps, UD and Panini all had the same MO. Not just one company, but all three decided that it's ok to use fake uniforms, but not too fake, just real looking enough to fool anyone who might inquire -- and they need to come from "reputable" sources, like ASI, in case anyone ever asks where they got the stuff.

I have a hard time buying that, but it will be interesting to see how forthcoming the card companies are about their sources.

Birdbats not to sound sarcastic but you actually answered your own question with out having to even think of possible other answered. There is no ifs buts or ? about it. This is the exact reason "no paper trail" to the corp company

You may have a hard time buying it but I dont know why. This practice has been done throughout time. Let the middle man take the fall. The paper trail stops with him.
It gives the major corporate company the out of saying "thats why we paid them to get us the real stuff"
To find 3 companies may have took part in this practice is even easier to believe. I am not shocked more didn't jump on the bandwagon. When there is so much more money to be making, why not 20 card companies jumping in on it.

Not to say they are fake but look at all the auto graph companies putting out there own cards or photos with slices of bats or Jerseys.

Everyone wants a piece of the action.

Remember where there is demand for something there is always forgery.

Clothing, sneakers, cd's, babe ruth auto's!!

[suave1477]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

I think the card people don't care about any of this. I watch guys open boxes of cards and they never seem to care. They only care what they pull. Us game used people are insulted by the whole process, but card collectors like the concept and are not an anal about what's real and what's not.

Now, if autographs are found not to be genuine that is always a concern of card collectors - Go figure.

I cant believe I am doing this but I am

I actually agree 100% to the T of what TRSENT has said. It is so sad the card collectors are no where near as anal as knowing the history behind the Jersey. They just rather open up the pack and just believe they own a piece of it.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

class action lawsuit.
the people vs. Upper Deck(etc.)

[xpress34]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

Playing devil's advocate with myself, maybe the companies thought they needed a paper trail. So they bought fake jerseys from third parties and took photos of the "used" jerseys to document them before cutting them up. Maybe it was worth the extra money to be able to show receipts and photos in case authorities ever suspected wrongdoing.

Still, if you believe Wells, you have to accept that Topps, UD and Panini all had the same MO. Not just one company, but all three decided that it's ok to use fake uniforms, but not too fake, just real looking enough to fool anyone who might inquire -- and they need to come from "reputable" sources, like ASI, in case anyone ever asks where they got the stuff.

I have a hard time buying that, but it will be interesting to see how forthcoming the card companies are about their sources.

Jeff -

I agree with you on the skepticism - except when it comes to Upper Deck.

I know I will probably get based because UDA are considered some of the most reliable autos and such, but their history doesn't leave me with a 'feel good' sensation in my belly.

The 1st time I lost respect for UD was in 1990 when after all the hype about the Griffey RC being so hot and supposedly 'short print', but later UD admitted to double printing it for the 1989 'Hi Number' release. If anyone remembers how they did their 'Hi' numbers, in a pack you got 2 or 3 hi numbers and the rest were from the low number release. They had a terrible time with collation - you could guess what cards you had in your pack sometimes from the 1st or last card on the stack when you opened them. I worked in a shop in Denton, TX and watched a guy open a hi-number pack of 1989 and pull his 2 hi cards. Every other card in the pack was a Griffey RC.

2nd time was the ONE time the National had it's show in Denver. A buddy of mine was in line for Mantle with a vintage Mantle glove his dad had handed down to him. UD took his money ($75 I think at the time) and gave him his ticket. He passed at least 3 or 4 UD employees with his mitt, but when he got to the signing stage, a 'big wig' with UDA refused to let him get his mitt signed because they were considering having mitts made to be signed by Mick and sold through UDA. They didn't offer a refund, just handed him an 8x10 and sent him on his way. (Luckily Mick's people heard the discussion and got his mitt signed away from UD).

3rd, they had a Ruth 'cut auto' that when it was offered on eBay by the gentleman who pulled it, it was discovered to be a fake ad UD did all kinds of backpedaling pointing fingers at different people but never wanting to take the blame for not doing their 'due diligence'. The law case it what changed the wording on the back of both auto and gu cards... because UDs card stated that it (UD) fully guaranteed the authenticity, they got hit with the law suit that I believe settled for somewhere around $3mil when it was all said and done due to damages to reputations, etc. Cards now general state if a rep saw the auto, or that they believe the auto to be genuine and it was obtained through a reputable source (meaning they can shift blame if another fake comes up).

Finally, the most damning issue with UD - and I only am aware of this because of my local card shop with did Sports and Gaming cards. There was a YugiOh set or something that UD did for Konami here stateside and there was an ULTRA Rare Chrome card that was getting hundreds if not thousands og dollars in the Japanese market. UD say an opportunity and WITHOUT the blessing of Konami, basically made a batch of fakes of the card and leaked them out into the market for profit. UD settled out of court with Konami for somewhere in the area of $30million.

I'm sorry, a company that double prints their most iconic card and then later makes fakes of a card it only had license to print once... I wouldn't put it past them knowingly using replica jsys in their cards.

DonRuss, Leaf and the former Fleer always seemed to have the best reputations for their GU stuff. DonRuss/Leaf use to allow access to their GU vault to anyone who wanted to inspect the items they used in their cards.

Just my .02

[ryant7]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

On another note not having to do with game used material. A player that came through Louisville was signing autographs in the dugout, a little boy bought a regular issue card of the player to get it signed the player signed some chicken scratch and the boy took the card back to the card dealer at slugger field and complained because the "certified" autograph card of the same player he had in his case was signed beautifully and you could read every letter. The dealer took the certified and the card that the boy just had signed and took it to the dugout to ask the player why the signatures vary so extremely. The player looked at the dealer and said oh that card..... the company mailed me 1000 of those cards and I had a girl I was dating at the time sign them......so much for the back of the card reading "signed in the presence of a rep from _________ card company"

[Birdbats]

Re: BREAKING: Wells, FBI, Card Companies & Fakes

Playing devil's advocate with myself, maybe the companies thought they needed a paper trail. So they bought fake jerseys from third parties and took photos of the "used" jerseys to document them before cutting them up. Maybe it was worth the extra money to be able to show receipts and photos in case authorities ever suspected wrongdoing.

Still, if you believe Wells, you have to accept that Topps, UD and Panini all had the same MO. Not just one company, but all three decided that it's ok to use fake uniforms, but not too fake, just real looking enough to fool anyone who might inquire -- and they need to come from "reputable" sources, like ASI, in case anyone ever asks where they got the stuff.

I have a hard time buying that, but it will be interesting to see how forthcoming the card companies are about their sources.