2017 HOF voting

[STLHAMMER32]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

I agree with Ken on Manny and McGwire.
If you are a student of the game, the art of hitting, the mechanics of the swing, then you recognize that Manny is a top 3 right handed hitter of all time. He had the picture perfect swing for power and average i.e. Bonds from the left side.
(Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time btw).

Regarding Pujols. Pujols was probably the greatest right handed hitter of all time during his time in St. Louis but his decline when switching to the AL was incredible. The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

If there are 4 players besides Mike Trout that are better than Albert on the angels I haven't seen them. Genuinely curious as to who you're referring to?

Albert picks and chooses when to "guess" and I've seen him sit on soft stuff just as much as fastballs.... Still never strikes out 100 times in a season. The reduced workout and more rest has been primarily due to forced rest by injury. His plantar fascia has been a lingering issue that's progressively gotten worse. Most players surrounding Albert will tell you that with the injuries he has dealt with few would even play let alone produce. He still adjusts his game and produces 30/100 currently and will have hit 3,000 hits and 600 hrs very shortly for his career.

Bonds is the best hitter I've ever seen. Left, Right....it doesn't matter. Best hitter of all-time.

[KGoldin]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Since we have the mutual admiration society going, I will say this is extremely well thought out and exactly how I feel.
If there is a drug that can help you hit 45 Hrs, while striking out 41 times, and walking more than 6 out of 10 times up at the plate (while batting .362) let me have it!

I agree with Ken on Manny and McGwire.
If you are a student of the game, the art of hitting, the mechanics of the swing, then you recognize that Manny is a top 3 right handed hitter of all time. He had the picture perfect swing for power and average i.e. Bonds from the left side.
(Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time btw).

Regarding Pujols. Pujols was probably the greatest right handed hitter of all time during his time in St. Louis but his decline when switching to the AL was incredible. The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

[BirdsOnBat]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Since I can no longer edit this, I'll just reply.

My apologies if my response came off in poor tone as that is not my intent. If someone wishes to punish McGwire for not staying healthy, that is certainly understandable and a part of the equation for sure.

Happy holidays.

Counting stats are cool. The SLG% and OPS aren't even close. McGwire amassed a higher career WAR in 500 less games, while playing a position that will not aid your wins above replacement from a defensive standpoint. 500.

[BirdsOnBat]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

This has likely been a direct result of chronic foot injuries. Compensation.

[Nnunnari]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

I agree with Ken on Manny and McGwire.
If you are a student of the game, the art of hitting, the mechanics of the swing, then you recognize that Manny is a top 3 right handed hitter of all time. He had the picture perfect swing for power and average i.e. Bonds from the left side.
(Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time btw).

Regarding Pujols. Pujols was probably the greatest right handed hitter of all time during his time in St. Louis but his decline when switching to the AL was incredible. The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

[BirdsOnBat]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Sosa also had more Hits, Runs, Home Runs, RBI, Doubles, Triples, stolen bases and a higher Batting Average

Counting stats are cool. The SLG% and OPS aren't even close. McGwire amassed a higher career WAR in 500 less games, while playing a position that will not aid your wins above replacement from a defensive standpoint. 500.

[KGoldin]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

McGwire was not of the same offensive profile as Sosa, his career OBP% is .400, he took walks and had a great batting eye. Sosa's career OBP% is about 50 points lower. They may have both chased the HR record one season, but they were far different at the plate.

IMO- Mark McGwire should be in the HOF for making people CARE about baseball again!
Ripken may have 'saved' baseball after the 1994 strike, however McGwire pushed it back to the spot as America's pastime in 1998

I hate these self righteous voters...if it wasn't against the rules at the time, and wasn't banned, and if no positive tests.....if they are worthy let them in....
(than again I think Rose SHOULD be in as well, put a note on his plaque that he was banned from MLB Baseball (but not the hall of fame)

[STLHAMMER32]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Dude, Manny might be the greatest right handed hitter of all time. I don't think he'll ever get in because of the multiple failed tests but he was incredible.
Once Pudge gets in, the rest of the non-failed test steroid guys need to get in. Pudge clearly used, Bagwell most likely used, all these guys still belong in the Hall (along with Barry, Roger, Sosa etc). A Rod, Manny and Palmeiro won't get in because of the failed tests.

Its amazing the lack of love for McGriff, the Crime Dog was a no-doubt HOFer.

Pujols>Ramirez

No doubt manny is one of the best from the right side however.

[nevrdiez34]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

McGwire was not of the same offensive profile as Sosa, his career OBP% is .400, he took walks and had a great batting eye. Sosa's career OBP% is about 50 points lower. They may have both chased the HR record one season, but they were far different at the plate.

Sosa also had more Hits, Runs, Home Runs, RBI, Doubles, Triples, stolen bases and a higher Batting Average

[BirdsOnBat]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Manny was amazing .
Seriously
And love able
Not like a McGwire or Sosa where it was a home run or a K
Look at his OBP

McGwire was not of the same offensive profile as Sosa, his career OBP% is .400, he took walks and had a great batting eye. Sosa's career OBP% is about 50 points lower. They may have both chased the HR record one season, but they were far different at the plate.

[Juicyfruit66]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

If the ped guys don't count as cheaters, why is rose still banned? Taking enhancing drugs to play better than those. Who follow the rules is pretty low in my opinion, bad role models and bad exanples to young players

[KGoldin]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Manny was amazing .
Seriously
And love able
Not like a McGwire or Sosa where it was a home run or a K
Look at his OBP
Almost Williams and Bonds like
Multiple failed tests a big problem though, however all late in his career

[Chris78]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

Dude, Manny might be the greatest right handed hitter of all time. I don't think he'll ever get in because of the multiple failed tests but he was incredible.
Once Pudge gets in, the rest of the non-failed test steroid guys need to get in. Pudge clearly used, Bagwell most likely used, all these guys still belong in the Hall (along with Barry, Roger, Sosa etc). A Rod, Manny and Palmeiro won't get in because of the failed tests.

Its amazing the lack of love for McGriff, the Crime Dog was a no-doubt HOFer.

Your view of Manny is way too extreme. One thing that needs to be considered is that his stats would not be as good without the use of PED's. If he hit 450 home runs without PED's, would he be the greatest right handed hitter of all time. I do not think so.

I like your view of McGriff though. He has the highest amount of home runs for anyone not associated to PED use that is not already in the Hall of Fame. I have always felt that in order for some of the PED guys to get in such as Manny, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc., McGriff needs to be inducted first. He would be my 10th ballot selection if I voted for 10 people on this year's ballot. Are any of those guys better than McGriff without the PED use? I feel that is something that people need to consider, and truth be told, may be the best way for these PED guys to get inducted at some point.

[Nnunnari]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

I reviewed the stats and I am not seeing it. Manny even had the least home runs of the 4. I view Manny as even being more tainted as well with multiple failed drug tests. Just because he played with Boston does not mean he should be treated any differently. Manny is more similar to those 3 then Clemens, Bonds as well.

Dude, Manny might be the greatest right handed hitter of all time. I don't think he'll ever get in because of the multiple failed tests but he was incredible.
Once Pudge gets in, the rest of the non-failed test steroid guys need to get in. Pudge clearly used, Bagwell most likely used, all these guys still belong in the Hall (along with Barry, Roger, Sosa etc). A Rod, Manny and Palmeiro won't get in because of the failed tests.

Its amazing the lack of love for McGriff, the Crime Dog was a no-doubt HOFer.

[KGoldin]

Re: 2017 HOF voting

I think Bagwell, and Raines are a LOCK
Irod actually doing extremely well, although with the past rumors of his PED use (via Canseco) I would be surprised if there wasn't a big silent block not revealing ballots who will NOT let him in first time.
every year new voters come on and old go out.
If Bonds and Clemens can creep up above 60%, it will look very good for both of them
I cannot imagine a HOF without Barry Bonds. greatest hitter I ever saw. end of story