Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

[joelsabi]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/090513&sportCat=mlb

"Oh, right. A priest, a rabbi and Manny Ramirez walk into a bar. The bartender says 'What'll you have?' The priest says: 'I'll have a beer.' The rabbi says: 'I'll have a glass of wine.' The bartender says: 'What about you, Manny?' And Manny says: 'I can't drink alcohol because I'm taking female fertility drugs. I'll have a glass of cranberry juice.'"

[David]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

One very last point. Even if one subscribes to the theory that you should drop the morals and ethics and just accept that steroids were prevelent in the era and judge players within the context of their era, that does not change the fact that the only reason Palmeiro and Sheffield would be in the Hall of Fame was because steroids boosted their numbers into “Hall of Fame numbers.” From whichever moral or philosophical or practical way the steroid era is viewed, steroids made some players from non-HOFers to HOFers.

[David]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

Here’s an example. Many think Rafael Palmeiro should be in the home run, not because of contemporary player to player comparison, but because he hit over 500 home runs and 3,000 hits. If he didn’t use steroids and hit only 450 home runs and 2789 hits, how many people would say he should be in the Hall of Fame? Close to none.


If Gary Sheffield never used steroids and hit only 469 home runs, how many would think he deserved to go to the Hall? Close to none.


In my opinion, the only reason some players are currently even being debated as possible Hall of Famers is because they artificially inflated their numbers via steroids. Without the artificially padding, few to no one would consider them Hall worthy.

[David]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

The problem with steroids users are their numbers can't be taken at face value and would have been substantially lower if they had not used. Some of these players (McGwire, Palmeiro, Sheffield?) would not have the HOF-level stats they currently have if not for steroids, and we wouldn't be debating if they were HOF worthy as their stats would not be good enough.

I also don't give the benefit of the doubt to steroid users. Some say "So and so was going to the Hall of Fame even without steroids." My response is either "You can never know that" or "Then he shouldn't have used steroids." Many people said Eric Davis "was going to the Hall of Fame" until he sucked.

[rj_lucas]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

I'll go along with you on this, on one condition: that the words "integrity, sportsmanship, character" are stricken from the HOF voting criteria.

I'm in complete agreement with you on that point. Morality cannot be legislated.

People forget that Bowie Kuhn banned both Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays from any association with Major League Baseball for crying out loud, and this was AFTER they were inducted in the Hall of Fame.

Fortunately the Hall had the good sense to leave things as they stood, and Peter Ueberroth likewise had the good sense to overturn the ban.

Now if only we could find a Commissioner with enough good sense to remove Joe Jackson from MLB's ineligible list, we could get him into the Hall of Fame where he belongs.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

[godwulf]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

I understand what you guys are saying, but at the same time, it just smacks of, to my way of thinking, the "It's not fair to penalize me for breaking the rules when so many others have gotten away with it" mentality.

I'll go along with you on this, on one condition: that the words "integrity, sportsmanship, character" are stricken from the HOF voting criteria. Regardless of what other generations of ballplayers, fans and sportswriters have done, there's no way we can continue to pretend that HOF membership means anything if we're going to just ignore half the requirements for induction.

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

Honestly, you don't consider the use of performance-enhancing drugs to be in any way negatively indicative of a player's "integrity, sportsmanship, [or] character"?

PED's, and the players who have and are still using them, are no better and no worse than the clansmen, racists, wife beaters, alcoholics and overall dirtbags that some of the men were that are currently in the HOF.

Whose's to say one is better than the other?

How can we honestly ignore past players known behaviors and only focus on todays PED users?


Players should still be judged by their numbers....tainted or not. How do we know that players in the 70's were using all sorts of drugs while playing which might have altered their numbers? We know many players in the 80's used cocaine. What about them?

What if 2 weeks after we induct Rickey we find out he used PED's? Do we "expel" him?



At this point , in my honest opinion, it's a moot point.

I say if they had HOF numbers...put them in. And that goes for my most hated player of all time...Bonds.

But then again.....this is just my opinion and take on things.

[rj_lucas]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

Honestly, you don't consider the use of performance-enhancing drugs to be in any way negatively indicative of a player's "integrity, sportsmanship, [or] character"?

I understand where you're coming from, and I don't want to sound like an apologist for steroid use.

All I'm saying is, within the context of the times, PEDs are no different (from an integrity, sportsmanship, or character perspective) than other behaviors ascribed to players currently in the Hall of Fame.

The spitball was banned in 1920 but was commonly used for another two decades and wasn't uncommon another three decades after THAT.

I wish Alex Rodriguez had not used steroids, but he did. I wish Gaylord Perry had not thrown a spitball pitch, but he did. Should they be in the Hall of Fame? IMO they should.

But again, I understand your position, and realize many people feel the same way. This is a circular argument, which is what makes it interesting

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

[godwulf]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

If there were a rule stating that use of PEDs, or on-field 'cheating' of any kind, precluded a player from HOF consideration this entire debate would be moot.

Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

Honestly, you don't consider the use of performance-enhancing drugs to be in any way negatively indicative of a player's "integrity, sportsmanship, [or] character"?

[rj_lucas]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

All we can do is to uphold the rules, as written, today.

With all due respect, the rules for Hall of Fame admission are already being upheld, as they are written today:

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers/rules.jsp

Don't confuse the rules of the HOF with those of MLB, because they're not the same. The rules for HOF admission have been carefully crafted to avoid subjective issues relating to personal behavior.

If there were a rule stating that use of PEDs, or on-field 'cheating' of any kind, precluded a player from HOF consideration this entire debate would be moot.

How many HOF pitchers have loaded a baseball at some point in their career? How many HOF batters have corked?

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/cheaters/ballplayers.html

There's no doubt that many of the PEDs implicated players will fail to make it to the HOF in their first year of eligibility. If that's due to payback from the baseball writers, so be it.

But fast forward 20 years, and if Bonds, Rodriguez, McGwire, Palmeiro, Ramirez, Clemens, etc. are not in the HOF, they might as well shut the doors because the HOF will have become invalid. And I say that as someone who has given enough memorabilia to the HOF to have received a lifetime pass.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

[nationals2k9]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

Glavine a little too high and no love for Thome. Don't see why A-Rod is that much higher than Manny and Pujols. I think by the time current players are up for vote the system will make more sense.

And this is from Jan '09 which explains most of what I just said.

I'm mainly concerned with 2016-17 time period.

[nationals2k9]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

what if it was left to baseball fans who have internet access.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/ballot?event_id=3767

Which of these players would you vote into the Hall of Fame?

90.2% Greg Maddux
84.5% Alex Rodriguez
83.8% Ken Griffey Jr.
82.1% Randy Johnson
78.2% Mariano Rivera
74.6% Derek Jeter
74.0% Tom Glavine
73.2% Albert Pujols
71.2% Manny Ramirez
67.9% John Smoltz
60.0% Pedro Martinez
59.6% Ichiro Suzuki
55.8% Ivan Rodriguez
53.4% Trevor Hoffman
49.4% Frank Thomas
46.9% Chipper Jones
40.7% Curt Schilling
38.5% Vladimir Guerrero
36.8% Jeff Kent
34.7% Johan Santana
33.2% Mike Mussina
32.3% Jim Thome
29.2% Omar Vizquel
16.6% Gary Sheffield
10.2% Carlos Delgado

Total Votes: 10,842

Glavine a little too high and no love for Thome. Don't see why A-Rod is that much higher than Manny and Pujols. I think by the time current players are up for vote the system will make more sense.

[joelsabi]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

Here a good read on HOF voting:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/090121

I think the votes should be made public too.

[joelsabi]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

what if it was left to baseball fans who have internet access.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/ballot?event_id=3767

Which of these players would you vote into the Hall of Fame?

90.2% Greg Maddux
84.5% Alex Rodriguez
83.8% Ken Griffey Jr.
82.1% Randy Johnson
78.2% Mariano Rivera
74.6% Derek Jeter
74.0% Tom Glavine
73.2% Albert Pujols
71.2% Manny Ramirez
67.9% John Smoltz
60.0% Pedro Martinez
59.6% Ichiro Suzuki
55.8% Ivan Rodriguez
53.4% Trevor Hoffman
49.4% Frank Thomas
46.9% Chipper Jones
40.7% Curt Schilling
38.5% Vladimir Guerrero
36.8% Jeff Kent
34.7% Johan Santana
33.2% Mike Mussina
32.3% Jim Thome
29.2% Omar Vizquel
16.6% Gary Sheffield
10.2% Carlos Delgado

Total Votes: 10,842

[godwulf]

Re: Not that we need to revisit the whole Manny mess....

It isn't possible to turn back the clock and start expelling guys from the Hall, either because we're judging them by a different standard than was in play in their day, or because the details and extent of their "transgressions" were not generally known, or for other reasons unrelated (or even related) to their play on the field or personal character.

All we can do is to uphold the rules, as written, today.

To do otherwise is really just attempting to excuse bad behavior - behavior that absolutely should disqualify anyone from being voted into the HOF today - by citing the ethical lapses of athletes (and, perhaps, of sportswriters) of the past.

I don't care what the HOF voters did twenty, forty, sixty years ago - that's out of our hands. What the voters do today, and what the fans call for (and stand for) is our responsibility.

Let future Baseball people look back at this time, and say, "Yeah...that's when they started enforcing the rules. That's when they started doing it the right way."