Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

[xpress34]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

xpress34,

Plus, he was arguably never the best pitcher in his league at any point/season in his career, or at least for an extended period of time. And not winning a single CY Young award is a factor as well. Awards aren't perfect, but in a career as long as his, not one??

I'll just use one state WAR since it is the big buzzword stat of late:

1972 (1st year w/ Angels)
#7 OVERALL
#4 for Pitchers

1973 AL
#3 OVERALL
#2 for Pitchers

1974 AL
#10 OVERALL
#7 for Pitchers

1977 AL
#2 OVERALL (Behind Rod Carew)
#1 for Pitchers

1981 NL
#5 OVERALL
#3 for Pitchers

And twice in the 90's he was top 10 WAR for Pitchers in AL

His stats in a couple of years with the Angels would have won him a Cy Young using today's standards. Back then, being on a losing team was the kiss of death - not now (see King Felix).

In 1973 Ryan lost the Cy Young to Jim Palmer who was on a 1st Place Team (Orioles) while he pitched for a 4th Place Team (Angels)

Palmer Ryan

W/L 22-9 21-16
G 38 41
GS 37 39
CG 19 26
SHO 6 4
IP 296.1 326.0
SO 158 383
ERA 2.40 2.87
WHIP 0.44 0.55
K/IP 0.53 1.17

Ryan beats him 6 of 10 categories - but pitches for a losing team.

For Reference, here's Felix Hernandez vs David Price last year:

Felix Price

W/L 13-12 19-6
G 34 32
GS 34 31
CG 6 2
SHO 1 1
IP 249.2 208.2
SO 232 188
ERA 2.27 2.72
WHIP 1.057 1.193
K/IP 0.93 0.90

In the categories Ryan won, he DOMINATED Palmer. The four categories Palmer won were slim margins.

In the category Price won, he DOMINATED Felix. None of the categories Felix won were dominating wins. Yet Felix won the CY for a losing team while David price moved onto the Post Season.

Playing for losing franchises (Mets [except '69], Angels and Rangers didn't help him out any in the era in which he pitched.

Also, his single season SO record came in the 1st season of the DH. No small feat that he passed Koufax and didn't get to pitch to any patsy's (pitcher's).

Bonds could have absolutely been on the team. He had 3 MVP's, a sack full of Gold Gloves and was the game's best 2-way player at the time. Unless, you want to argue A-Rod (still too early in his career) or Griffey (who was on the team, so that is support for Bonds being on it). And Pete Rose would be the guy I'd remove for Bonds, and some other players too.

Outside of Griffey, you want to remove a guy who played CLEAN for Juicers??? (Bonds and A-Rod) Besides that, Rose played to win for the team, not for HIMSELF like those to self righteous @$$e$.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions - and ours disagree - just wanted to make sure you (like others out there) realize that in the early '70's Ryan was about as dominant a pitcher as there was in MLB.

All the best -

Smitty

[AM]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

And Seaver... where was he? There weren't too many guys better than Tom Terrific... and can we throw the Mets a bone, please?!

[AM]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

xpress34,

I think you are in the minority if you believe Ryan was better than Maddux, or Rose was better than Frank Robinson or Barry Bonds (and those were only the 2 I mentioned). I agree HR's aren't everything, but Robinson and Bonds were much more than power. Defense, base running, OPS, etc. When these skills are combined with power, they are the better players. Rose isn't even the best lead-off hitter - Rickey comes first, and there are arguments for others like Ichiro and maybe Boggs, and those are the only 2 modern ones I can think of right now.

I am not concerned too much with Ryan's win totals, as that is also dependent on team & bullpen (as you mentioned). But, his WHIP is worse and his walk totals are astonishing. If it's not fair to compare power pitcher to finesse (like Maddux) in terms of walks, fine, but when compared to other HOF power pitchers, such as Koufax, Gibson, Carlton, Randy Johnson, Pedro, Ryan's bases on balls are almost comical. I am not saying that he doesn't belong in the Hall, but in my opinion, he doesn't crack my all-time rotation, not even close. Plus, he was arguably never the best pitcher in his league at any point/season in his career, or at least for an extended period of time. And not winning a single CY Young award is a factor as well. Awards aren't perfect, but in a career as long as his, not one??


sylbry,

You may have misread portions of my post. I said that I understand why Pedro and Randy weren't on the All-Century team because it was too early in their careers. And I will take another look at Maddux - he may have had some really good years post-99 and so you may be right, it might have been too early for him as well. I apologize.

And yes, I meant Jimmie Foxx over McGwire. Gehrig belongs, he is a no-brainer. Even Hank Greenberg over McGwire.

Bonds could have absolutely been on the team. He had 3 MVP's, a sack full of Gold Gloves and was the game's best 2-way player at the time. Unless, you want to argue A-Rod (still too early in his career) or Griffey (who was on the team, so that is support for Bonds being on it). And Pete Rose would be the guy I'd remove for Bonds, and some other players too.

[sylbry]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

As an aside, the MLB all-century team from 1999 (I think) was a joke - McGwire? Nolan Ryan? Pete Rose? There are others I can't think of right now. Where was Maddux, Barry Bonds, Jimmie Foxx? Pedro & Randy Johnson were still early in their brilliance so I understand they weren't there. Pete Rose's hits are impressive, but he was not nearly the player Frank Robinson, Bonds, were, etc.

Really? The team was put together in 1999. Pedro made his mark that season and continued to for the next few years. Same with Johnson. Putting them on the All Century Team in 1999 would have been laughable.

Maddux. Again, his body of work wasn't complete. Who would have have replaced?

This was the ALL CENTURY TEAM. And the accomplishments of the above three pitchers during the 20th Century didn't make the cut compared to Nolan Ryan and others. Now you could certainly argue who is the better pitcher overall but that is not what the All Century Team was about.

Barry Bonds? Come on already. Again, this is 1999. Bonds was not even a thought. Based on his career through 1998 (as the team was introduced in July 1999, who would you have taken off the list and replaced Bonds with?

Jimmie Foxx... possibly. But who would he have replaced, Lou Gehrig? I don't think so. McGwire, absolutely. But everyone had their heads in the sand at that point so that wouldn't have happened.

[xpress34]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

As an aside, the MLB all-century team from 1999 (I think) was a joke - Nolan Ryan? Pete Rose? There are others I can't think of right now.

Pete Rose's hits are impressive, but he was not nearly the player Frank Robinson, Bonds, were, etc.

I can go on forever... let's stay on topic... Reggie vs. the world...

You brought them up, so I will take a quick side track...

Nolan? I will admit I am biased (xpress34), but he does hold or shares 26 MLB records (which is a record in and of itself). His and Maddux 162 Game Avg is almost identical. I could write a book on Nolan but will refrain. I will say that if Nolan had pitched more in the era of the long reliever and closer, he might have had a few more wins on his resume that Maddux, Clemens and others benefited from having behind them when they pitched.

Pete Rose? Robinson and Bonds could't hold his jock - neither could pretty much any other player in MLB history. Besides the hits, most casual fans don't realize that Pete holds another much more impressive (to me at least) record... played over 500 games at 5 different positions: 1b, 2b, 3b, RF, LF. Michael Young might be the only player that could come close to that having played over 300 games at 3 different positions: 3b, SS, 2b and if he stays healthy, he might add 1b to that list. Valuable to his team as much for his bat as for his ability to fill in where needed. Yes, Bonds and Robinson have more HRs and such, but that isn't the only thing that makes a ball player.

But I digress back to the original topic and let this train get back on it's tracks.

- Smitty

[freddiefreeman5]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

How many guys who began their career between 1065 and 1985 hit 500 homers? Three. Mike, Reggie and Murray. In contrast eight players whose careers began between 1945 and 1965 hit 500 and nine whose career began between 1985 and today have reached that number. Only one guy hit 50 homers in the 25 years between 65 and 90. There were eight 50 homer seasons between 1945 and 1965 and over 20 since 1990. I am not a fan of the roid era but the reality is the numbers count.

The numbers are inflated in the steroid era. They may count in the record book but not for me.

I understand what you are saying and you stated your position very well. I agree with the numbers.
However, I just don't think Jackson was as good as others do. He hit a lot of HR's but still only managed 5 100+ RBI seasons, only lead the league in RBI's one time, only lead the league in HR's 4 times, hit .262 lifetime, only won 1 MVP, struck out 2597 times, etc........
Take away the 500 HR's and you have Jim Rice.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

You said there wasn't as much offense in the 60's, 70's and 80's. I just listed some of the big homerun hitters. I didn't even mention all the small ball run producers like Rose, Morgan, Brock, etc.........

You can't compare an era of steroid freaks to an era of normal guys. Wonder how many homeruns Mays would have hit on the juice.

I do not recall the steroid era with such affection as you do. I look back at it with disdain.

How many guys who began their career between 1065 and 1985 hit 500 homers? Three. Mike, Reggie and Murray. In contrast eight players whose careers began between 1945 and 1965 hit 500 and nine whose career began between 1985 and today have reached that number. Only one guy hit 50 homers in the 25 years between 65 and 90. There were eight 50 homer seasons between 1945 and 1965 and over 20 since 1990. I am not a fan of the roid era but the reality is the numbers count.

[freddiefreeman5]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

You are right about some of them being at the end of their careers though. Not all of them, but some.

[freddiefreeman5]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

? Most of those guys you name were at the tail end of their careers or retired when Reggie debuted definitely not in their primes. I.E. Mantle, Mays, Musial, Matthews, Banks, McCovey, Billy Williams and Kaline. So I don't see your point. From 1965 to 1990 only George Foster had 50 homers in a season. Compared to the surrounding eras 1990-2005 and 1950-1965 offensive was definitely down overall during 1965-1990. Check the numbers yourself.

You said there wasn't as much offense in the 60's, 70's and 80's. I just listed some of the big homerun hitters. I didn't even mention all the small ball run producers like Rose, Morgan, Brock, etc.........

You can't compare an era of steroid freaks to an era of normal guys. Wonder how many homeruns Mays would have hit on the juice.

I do not recall the steroid era with such affection as you do. I look back at it with disdain.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

Please don't put Mike Schmidt and Reggie Jackson in the same class - arguably the greatest third baseman ever, and one of the game's all-time great two-way players, vs. a power-hitting strikeout machine who did NOTHING else.

I am not advocating taking Reggie out of the Hall, but there needs to be some sort of re-evaluation of truly great players versus those who are very good over a long time, compilers.

Pitchers are a little different, but they too need to have their standards re-evaluated. IMO, guys like Niekro, Sutton, etc. are not HOF pitchers. I know longevity gets rewarded, but it is overrated.

As an aside, the MLB all-century team from 1999 (I think) was a joke - McGwire? Nolan Ryan? Pete Rose? There are others I can't think of right now. Where was Maddux, Barry Bonds, Jimmie Foxx? Pedro & Randy Johnson were still early in their brilliance so I understand they weren't there. Pete Rose's hits are impressive, but he was not nearly the player Frank Robinson, Bonds, were, etc.

I can go on forever... let's stay on topic... Reggie vs. the world...

I was comparing them offensively. They were both power hitters who hit for a low batting average and whiffed alot during the same era. If you include defense I agree there is no comparison. I also agree that the Hall lets in too many guys who just have stats. Niekro, Sutton, Bert Blynn (However you spell that) to me are not HOfers by any strech of the imagination. What it comes down to is people like numbers and the inductions are huge revenue for the Hall and the town of Cooperstown particularly the hotels and restaraunts every year from all the tourists they attract so they want to induct someone every year.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

Tell that to McCovey, Aaron, Killebrew, Mays, Mantle, Mays, Robinson, Schmidt, Banks, Murry, Stargell, Musial, Matthews, Windfield, Yaz, Kingman, Dawson, Billy Williams, Darrell Evans, Kaline, etc............

? Most of those guys you name were at the tail end of their careers or retired when Reggie debuted definitely not in their primes. I.E. Mantle, Mays, Musial, Matthews, Banks, McCovey, Billy Williams and Kaline. So I don't see your point. From 1965 to 1990 only George Foster had 50 homers in a season. Compared to the surrounding eras 1990-2005 and 1950-1965 offensive was definitely down overall during 1965-1990. Check the numbers yourself.

[AM]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

Please don't put Mike Schmidt and Reggie Jackson in the same class - arguably the greatest third baseman ever, and one of the game's all-time great two-way players, vs. a power-hitting strikeout machine who did NOTHING else.

I am not advocating taking Reggie out of the Hall, but there needs to be some sort of re-evaluation of truly great players versus those who are very good over a long time, compilers.

Pitchers are a little different, but they too need to have their standards re-evaluated. IMO, guys like Niekro, Sutton, etc. are not HOF pitchers. I know longevity gets rewarded, but it is overrated.

As an aside, the MLB all-century team from 1999 (I think) was a joke - McGwire? Nolan Ryan? Pete Rose? There are others I can't think of right now. Where was Maddux, Barry Bonds, Jimmie Foxx? Pedro & Randy Johnson were still early in their brilliance so I understand they weren't there. Pete Rose's hits are impressive, but he was not nearly the player Frank Robinson, Bonds, were, etc.

I can go on forever... let's stay on topic... Reggie vs. the world...

[freddiefreeman5]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

IMO unless the Cards win the homers are merely a footnote in history and you can't compare them to what Reggie and Ruth did. Pujols despite that game has had some very bad moments in this

As for Reggie. The guy had his flaws but he was a great power hitter. Numbers don't tell the whole story because he played in the 60s, 70s and 80s which was a very depressed offensive era.

Tell that to McCovey, Aaron, Killebrew, Mays, Mantle, Mays, Robinson, Schmidt, Banks, Murry, Stargell, Musial, Matthews, Windfield, Yaz, Kingman, Dawson, Billy Williams, Darrell Evans, Kaline, etc............

[legaleagle92481]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

IMO unless the Cards win the homers are merely a footnote in history and you can't compare them to what Reggie and Ruth did. Pujols despite that game has had some very bad moments in this Series as well. Right now Napoli is in my book the player who has been the most impressive in the Series and unless the Cards come back the probable MVP of it.

As for Reggie. The guy had his flaws but he was a great power hitter. Numbers don't tell the whole story because he played in the 60s, 70s and 80s which was a very depressed offensive era. He was in the top ten in his league in homers 13 times with four homer titles and was runner-up twice. He was in the top ten in RBIs 10 times winning one RBI title. He won one regular season MVP, came in second once and won two World Series MVPs, which I don't believe anyone else has ever done. His batting average is low but Mike Schmidt, Eddie Matthews, Willie McCovey, Harmon Killebrew, Ernie Banks, McGwire, Sosa and Thome all hit 500 homers with an average below .280. The guy struck out more than anyone in history but seven of the top ten guys on the alltime strikeout list had 500 homers or came very close thereto (Stargell and McGriff). The talk of the power hitters of the recent era is also misplaced especially Manny because as we all now know he was using illegal performance enhancers and who knows how long he used such and offensive stats were much higher than when Reggie played overall. Was he a top 50 player all-time? Definitely not but he does belong in the Hall. Look at some of the other guys in there and you can't justify pulling him out.

[freddiefreeman5]

Re: Move over Reggie, Albert needs to sit beside of you

Reggie Jackton has become one of those players that everyone has heard of because of constant media coverage and praise. Therefore many think he was better than he really was.