Another juicer........

[LastingsMilledge85]

Re: Another juicer........

I just don't see the big deal anymore.

But then why do you think Bryce Harper should be investigated for steroids if, "you don't care anymore?"

[Titans74]

Re: Another juicer........

Who cares anymore. So what if he did? As far as I'm concerned, show me an athlete that 100% proof positive DOESN'T use something. That would be a bigger shock to me these days.

I used to be all up in arms about PED use in baseball. Now? I simply don't care anymore. I watch the game I love with a bit of nausea in my stomach. It's just how it is now.

I do however, have a bit more respect for those that used and either admitted it or didn't outright deny it. I still hope to hear Raffy one day just fess up and put it all behind him for good. I hope for him the post career success McGwire has had. But until then, he's still guilty in my book. As for Braun, oh well. Just another name to the already extensive list of cheaters.

I just don't see the big deal anymore.

[lakeerie92]

Re: Another juicer........

Like I said, I don't really have an opinion either way. I was just stating different things I had heard. I agree 100% that nothing should be done until the final result has been made, but there is nothing wrong with debating what should happen in that case. Given the history of positive test appeals and the information we know at this point it doesn't look good for Braun.

[trsent]

Re: Another juicer........

Sorry to side track the thread - and I thought we weren't supposed to have anymore 'political commentary' (and if you believe the above isn't a political statement, then I don't know what is) - but as a disabled veteran, I take strong offense at this comment.

I served my country proudly - giving up some of my own personal health in the process - so that you and others can live free.

If you don't think it's free, why don't you exercise one of your greatest freedoms - the freedom to leave.

Yes, since 9/11 things have changed - mostly for our safety as a nation. I don't like what goes on in D.C. either - I'm an independent by the way - but if you think there is a better country to live in, please be my guest and go there and enjoy.

Everyone - sorry for the rant, now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

- Smitty

Sorry if I offended you, but our free society has many, many perks but the government isn't for the people like it used to be. Here in Illinois the cost to live here has gone up in the past 12 months with no way around it and no public support. Tolls are almost doubling next month, state income tax has gone up about 75% since last year and our freedoms are not what they once were.

I fully applaud the military system in our country and all who have worked as a part of it.

The reason I moved to this comment is I believe all these punks who wish to use substances to make their bodies stronger for sporing purposes should be fully legal and accepted as long as they understand they will probably die young and miserable. Our society and many previous posts in this discussion state that Braun should have his award stripped before he has even been found guilty just on a preliminary report.

I say let them juice if they don't value their longevity in life and let's see how that way goes.

[xpress34]

Re: Another juicer........

One... actually TWO more things...

1) I am NOT a Braun fan and just want the system to work...

2) That said - and I wrote another thread on this, but it bears repeating - how does MLB/MLBPA not only reinstate ManRam, but also REDUCE his suspension... due to the length of time he's been away from the game?

There were no extenuating circumstances - Manny walked out on his team mates, his team, his league and the game. And now, IF he gets signed, he gets rewarded for being a chicken $&#t who couldn't even face his suspension like a man.

To me, that is MLB and MLBPA watering down the testing program.

If you committed a crime and 'locked yourself away' before being caught, you aren't going to get 'time served' for the length you were away from society.

Why should Manny be any different? If he fails a third, will they drop the lifetime ban and THEN give him 100 games and say he never served a 100 game suspension yet?

Selig is already starting to turn a blind eye again to what goes just to make more revenue and it makes me sick... here comes black cloud #2 for MLB.

[xpress34]

Re: Another juicer........

Now, for my .02 on Braun...

The ONE fact that makes this case different than any others is the TIMING.

Less than a month removed from winning the MVP his Positive test is confirmed. Some say MLB would have known before the voting, BUT (and I might be wrong here), all of the voting for ALL awards is supposed to be done BETWEEN the Last Game of the Season and before the First Game of the Playoffs as the playoffs are not supposed to sway opinion.

I agree with the argument that the NCAA set precedent and stripped Bush of his Heisman due to his issues that came to light.

My question (that hasn't been asked) is IF they uphold his Positive Test (which seems likely to me) - even if they don't take the award - do Kemp and the other MVP runner's up have a LEGAL STANDING to SUE Ryan Braun for lost money (perks in their contracts) based on where they ended up in the MVP voting? That could be an interesting angle...

The problem with my question though - and back to the MVP Award itself - is that Braun's Positive Test came at the start of the POST SEASON. He didn't fail a REGULAR SEASON test which kind of negates the 'stripping of the award' in my personal opinion.

[xpress34]

Re: Another juicer........

I like to give a side that no one ever considers in this communist society that we often like to fool ourselves into believing is a free country.

Sorry to side track the thread - and I thought we weren't supposed to have anymore 'political commentary' (and if you believe the above isn't a political statement, then I don't know what is) - but as a disabled veteran, I take strong offense at this comment.

I served my country proudly - giving up some of my own personal health in the process - so that you and others can live free.

If you don't think it's free, why don't you exercise one of your greatest freedoms - the freedom to leave.

Yes, since 9/11 things have changed - mostly for our safety as a nation. I don't like what goes on in D.C. either - I'm an independent by the way - but if you think there is a better country to live in, please be my guest and go there and enjoy.

Everyone - sorry for the rant, now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

- Smitty

[3arod13]

Re: Another juicer........

Reality is, it's never going away. They will always create something new, and players will always try to find some way to help give them the edge. It's all about the almighty $$$$$.

I just feel bad for those players who work hard to be the best they can be, the right way, and they get lost in the mix of all this crap!

[70to66]

Re: Another juicer........

Hope its not true, but check out this link?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-brown_hardball_braun_conte_testosterone_testing_121211

[trsent]

Re: Another juicer........

The biggest difference you are leaving out here is not one of those players is known to have tested positive during a MVP season. That is a MAJOR difference in this situation from any of the other players. Arod is the only possible exception because he said he used steroids when he went to Texas and he won a MVP in 2003. I agree if you take Braun's then you should take his too.

The comment saying let them ruin their bodies and stop these stupid tests is reckless and short sighted. Do you really think if you let them ruin their bodies it is going to stop with Major and Minor league players? The next step is high school and middle school players using them to try to get a competitive edge. Then you have people that don't have a snowballs chance in hell of going pro ruining their bodies because it is what they have to do to keep up.

its also a different situation because baseball has taken a "hard" stance against PED's at this point. They need to make an example and right now is the perfect time to do it. Take away the award, including the monetary awards for it and players will really think twice about using in the future.

Players take them now because of the potential money involved, you start affecting that money and players will think twice.

I say it is a double standard if they punish Braun, who hasn't been convicted of anything yet (I am worried he will not win his side, but he has the right to give his side, correct?). If they want to punish him, punish everyone else also on the list.

Don't tell me during a season this and after a season that. I forgot to originally mention, I believe Keith Hernandez's season from when he admitted to using cocaine should be wiped from the record books because he said back then that the baseball looked like a beach-ball when he used coke.

Also, did Fergie Jenkins get caught with marijuana back in Canada many moons ago? I believe his awards and achievements should then also be taken away. I believe that drug made him a better pitcher.

Oh wait, I'm being sarcastic. For someone who is clean and sober for going on 23 years next month I'm all for all these substances being made legal in professional sports. If a guy wants to ruin his body and die young so he can hit a baseball (or any other sports situation) it is not my business to say he can't.

I am not higher than anyone or anything but I have strong views on these situations which I am entitled to and as a regular contributor on this forum I like to give a side that no one ever considers in this communist society that we often like to fool ourselves into believing is a free country.

[OaklandAsFan]

Re: Another juicer........

its also a different situation because baseball has taken a "hard" stance against PED's at this point. They need to make an example and right now is the perfect time to do it. Take away the award, including the monetary awards for it and players will really think twice about using in the future.

Players take them now because of the potential money involved, you start affecting that money and players will think twice.

[lakeerie92]

Re: Another juicer........

Even if he is suspended, unless you go back and take away MVP awards from anyone who has tested positive, ever, then don't give me a crappy double-standard. You know, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Jose Canseco, Roger Clemens. They all have been tied to juice, so if you pick on Braun, pick on each and every name above also please. The time it takes to get caught and when you won the award is a stupid argument.

Notice I left off Barry Bonds - Never has there been any proof he juice. Just speculation (which may be true) but never anything proven.

Personally, I say let them all ruin their bodies and stop these stupid tests.

The biggest difference you are leaving out here is not one of those players is known to have tested positive during a MVP season. That is a MAJOR difference in this situation from any of the other players. Arod is the only possible exception because he said he used steroids when he went to Texas and he won a MVP in 2003. I agree if you take Braun's then you should take his too.

The comment saying let them ruin their bodies and stop these stupid tests is reckless and short sighted. Do you really think if you let them ruin their bodies it is going to stop with Major and Minor league players? The next step is high school and middle school players using them to try to get a competitive edge. Then you have people that don't have a snowballs chance in hell of going pro ruining their bodies because it is what they have to do to keep up.

[philsfan]

Re: Another juicer........

Notice I left off Barry Bonds - Never has there been any proof he juice. Just speculation (which may be true) but never anything proven.

Really, no proof of juice. Did you read the Grand Jury testimony he gave....? Call it what you want, but the clear and cream was a steroid and bonds admitted under oath he took it...regardless of whether he thought it was flaxseed or birdseed. LOL!

Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by the Burlingame laboratory now enmeshed in a sports doping scandal, but he said he never thought they were steroids, The Chronicle has learned.
Federal prosecutors charge that the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative, known as BALCO, distributed undetectable steroids to elite athletes in the form of a clear substance that was taken orally and a cream that was rubbed onto the body.
Bonds testified that he had received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season but was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by The Chronicle.
Federal prosecutors confronted Bonds during his testimony on Dec. 4, 2003, with documents indicating he had used steroids and human growth hormone during a three-year assault on baseball's home run record, but the Giants star denied the allegations.
During the three-hour proceeding, two prosecutors presented Bonds with documents that allegedly detailed his use of a long list of drugs: human growth hormone, Depo-Testosterone, undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," insulin and Clomid, a drug for female infertility sometimes used to enhance the effect of testosterone.
The documents, many with Bonds' name on them, are dated from 2001 through 2003. They include a laboratory test result that could reflect steroid use and what appeared to be schedules of drug use with billing information, prosecutors told the grand jury.
In a September 2003 raid on Anderson's Burlingame home, federal investigators seized documents they said showed Bonds was using banned drugs, according to court records. Anderson was indicted in February on charges of money laundering and conspiracy to distribute steroids in the BALCO case. Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, said he was upset, though not entirely surprised, his client's secret testimony had been revealed. He said he had no proof but suspected the government was the source of the leak, insisting it had been out to get Bonds from the beginning.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...#ixzz1gWL76Pvg

[trsent]

Re: Another juicer........

So many people want him stripped of his MVP but he hasn't even been convicted yet.

Even if he is suspended, unless you go back and take away MVP awards from anyone who has tested positive, ever, then don't give me a crappy double-standard. You know, Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Jose Canseco, Roger Clemens. They all have been tied to juice, so if you pick on Braun, pick on each and every name above also please. The time it takes to get caught and when you won the award is a stupid argument.

Notice I left off Barry Bonds - Never has there been any proof he juice. Just speculation (which may be true) but never anything proven.

Personally, I say let them all ruin their bodies and stop these stupid tests.

A good, short read:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AnF8TkHKjY8rTpbRSBGelew5nYcB?slug=ap-braun-positivedrugtest

Weiner: Avoid ‘rush to judgment’ on Braun


NEW YORK (AP)—Baseball’s union head says people should wait for all the facts before making conclusions about NL MVP Ryan Braun.


The Milwaukee Brewers’ star tested positive for a performance-enhancing substance and is appealing to an arbitrator. The case is not likely to be determined until next month at the earliest. If the positive test is upheld, Braun would face a 50-game suspension as a first offender.


Players’ association leader Michael Weiner says in a statement Tuesday that the drug agreement is designed to protect a player from “a rush to judgment.” He adds that “fairness dictates that Ryan Braun be treated no differently.”

[OaklandAsFan]

Re: Another juicer........

this doesn't just affect Kemp, Most players have it written into their contracts that they get X amount of money for finishing 1,2,3,4,etc in the MVP voting so all those players that didn't cheat (or at least didn't get caught) are losing money to someone who was caught.

MLB wanted to clean up the game and it will take something drastic to really make a point, this is the time to step up and do it. BBWA needs to make a stand also.