Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

[BU54CB]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

How do you determine if they are the greatest of all time, who do you compare them too? Do you compare Mike Schmidt to Babe Ruth or Gaylord Perry to Cy Young?

There has to be a combination of criteria used to determine a player's worthiness for the HOF, the era in which the athlete plays has to be taken into consideration. Comparing players from different eras to measure their greatness is almost impossible because the game changes so much, and that's true in any sport.

[gingi79]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Didn't know the HOF was based on the best player in a 10 year period. I thought it was the best of all time.

Late 70's to early 80's, the very best player in the NL and maybe even MLB was Dale Murphy. If a sportswriter in 1983 questioned his HOF enshrinement, they'd have been laughed at. Then he played way too long and it killed his chances of being enshrined. Had he retired in 1985?

Sandy Koufax couldn't strike out Goofy to begin his career but had 6 seasons pitching at the top tier, he retired, HOF.

Roady is right, it should be the best of all time. But what happens when for 6 years a player is a superstar, HOF numbers and the best player in MLB with stats and rivals declaring you were the hardest out/ best player/ etc.

I'd rather enshrine a Dale Murphy or a Sandy Koufax for being the best for half a decade than some 23 year vet who hung on for a 3000th hit but was never more than a good ballplayer who lucked out to have a career with no injuries.

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Just curious, who was a better second baseman than Sandberg during that era? Also, what's your case for Alan Trammell?

Didn't know the HOF was based on the best player in a 10 year period. I thought it was the best of all time.

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Roady, I take it you are one who believes the HOF is really the "Hall of Exclusive"? No room for great players, just the all-time legends? (I'm not knocking your view, just clarifying for myself.

Assuming Bill James is a fairly intelligent guy and moderately astute baseball historian, he has both Larkin and Sandberg barely out of the top-5 for their positions. What, may I ask, is your criteria for the HOF? Because if we only take the top-5 at each position, you're not having 100 players in the hall.

I love Trammell, but I'm not seeing how he's better than Larkin.

[sox83cubs84]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Just curious, who was a better second baseman than Sandberg during that era? Also, what's your case for Alan Trammell?

Likewise, in the 1960s, aside from Brooks Robinson, who excelled at 3B more than Santo? Especially in terms of HR and RBI, in which Santo surpasses Brooksie? They both belong.

Dave Miedema

[BU54CB]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Heres one for you. Ron Santo doesn't belong either. Just put in appease Cubs fans. He wasn't that good. And while on the subject of Cubs, Ryne Sandberg doesn't belong either.
Now go crazy and cry a little because someone disagrees with you if you want to.

Just curious, who was a better second baseman than Sandberg during that era? Also, what's your case for Alan Trammell?

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Funny thing is, Roady, I agree with most of your comments. Sandberg and Santo were borderline and may very well fall into the "Very Good" Hall category as you put it. I would argue Steve Garvey belongs in the Hall since those guys are in.

I don't want to upset you, but at no point was I ever close to going crazy because we may have one or two areas of difference in opinion. In fact, my eyes never welled up either. I was only commenting on an additional player that would fall into your argument, apparently wrongfully expressing my agreement with you in your eyes. You seemed to take a tad offense to my comment and my quoting you. Relax, I enjoy the conversation on the subject and trust you do too. I am writing back because I don't want you to cry, or go crazy. I care.

Your friend, Chris

Thanks Chris. Sorry I took offense. I took you post as confrontational and I clearly was mistaken.
I agree with you on Steve Garvey too. He should be in especially with some of the others that are in. Same with Alan Trammell.

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Heres one for you. Ron Santo doesn't belong either. Just put in appease Cubs fans. He wasn't that good. And while on the subject of Cubs, Ryne Sandberg doesn't belong either.
Now go crazy and cry a little because someone disagrees with you if you want to.

Funny thing is, Roady, I agree with most of your comments. Sandberg and Santo were borderline and may very well fall into the "Very Good" Hall category as you put it. I would argue Steve Garvey belongs in the Hall since those guys are in.

I don't want to upset you, but at no point was I ever close to going crazy because we may have one or two areas of difference in opinion. In fact, my eyes never welled up either. I was only commenting on an additional player that would fall into your argument, apparently wrongfully expressing my agreement with you in your eyes. You seemed to take a tad offense to my comment and my quoting you. Relax, I enjoy the conversation on the subject and trust you do too. I am writing back because I don't want you to cry, or go crazy. I care.

Your friend, Chris

[Sportskansascity]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Vizquel should be in hall of fame, just as Ozzie, Sandberg, and Santo deserve to be in Hall of Fame. If a person is in the hall of fame, they deserve to be in the hall of fame. It's not as if people are throwing darts and you get in by luck or chance

[Hoosier39]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

What about those that have good hardware and good numbers, but will be penalized because they stayed around too long? Yes, I'm talking about Omar Vizquel. He will be interesting when his time comes.

As for Jones, I don't think he's a HOF'er, but he could've been. I also think they will put into consideration his Japanese career numbers, but just a little. That might help his cause some, and ultimately he could still be playing when his name first appears on the ballot.

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Oh, forgot the smiley face. Would hate to really hurt someones feelings.
Here you go,

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

So I'm guessing you don't believe Bill Mazeroski belongs in the Hall either. Great fielding second baseman, but couldn't hit a lick until he had his biggest at-bat of his career in 1960. Fortunately for him (and Ozzie) they look at things other than just numbers to vote on their fate. Team leadership, clubhouse value (camaraderie) do carry value in the minds of the voters. And winning a World Series with a bat doesn't hurt. I remember Ozzie Smith hitting a devastating bomb against the Dodgers in the play-offs. These guys were ballers. In my opinion, they belong.

In regards to Andruw Jones, he was his own worst enemy. He got tangled up with porn stars, got lazy, and as could be predicted, his numbers fell off the cliff. Then he started team jumping and the bad part of that is because it was out of need, not his own personal desire. No one wanted him anymore. He destroyed his own career, his own legacy. He could have been a lock for the Hall, a 500 home run member, and as mentioned he was loaded in defensive ability. But when you look at the way his career drifted off into the oblivion, it is a big question mark as to whether he truly possesses the attributes of a HOF. I think he falls short based on his WHOLE career, and that's a shame. He didn't "finish".

Heres one for you. Ron Santo doesn't belong either. Just put in appease Cubs fans. He wasn't that good. And while on the subject of Cubs, Ryne Sandberg doesn't belong either.
Now go crazy and cry a little because someone disagrees with you if you want to.

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

Opening the door to Cooperstown to one trick ponies like Ozzie leaves the door wide open for others who excelled at defense and defense alone.

When Andruw Jones comes up for a vote, arguably the best outfielder of his generation with a ton of those gold gloves you mentioned, there will be those who will say he does not belong in the HOF. Despite having better numbers in almost all offensive categories than Ozzie Smith.

The door is opened and the HOF is watered down as a result.

So I'm guessing you don't believe Bill Mazeroski belongs in the Hall either. Great fielding second baseman, but couldn't hit a lick until he had his biggest at-bat of his career in 1960. Fortunately for him (and Ozzie) they look at things other than just numbers to vote on their fate. Team leadership, clubhouse value (camaraderie) do carry value in the minds of the voters. And winning a World Series with a bat doesn't hurt. I remember Ozzie Smith hitting a devastating bomb against the Dodgers in the play-offs. These guys were ballers. In my opinion, they belong.

In regards to Andruw Jones, he was his own worst enemy. He got tangled up with porn stars, got lazy, and as could be predicted, his numbers fell off the cliff. Then he started team jumping and the bad part of that is because it was out of need, not his own personal desire. No one wanted him anymore. He destroyed his own career, his own legacy. He could have been a lock for the Hall, a 500 home run member, and as mentioned he was loaded in defensive ability. But when you look at the way his career drifted off into the oblivion, it is a big question mark as to whether he truly possesses the attributes of a HOF. I think he falls short based on his WHOLE career, and that's a shame. He didn't "finish".

[Roady]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

I appreciate that commando, I really do.

And I respect your opinion and anyone else's too.

[commando]

Re: Sports writer who won't vote for Hall of Fame candidates

That's a great response, Roady... You're one of my favorite posters here.

This may be slightly off topic, but I have a feeling that many of the "vintage" Hall of Fame players before our time were shaped over time to look like mythical legends, but in reality were great -- but very human -- players. The worst offender here is NFL Films, which really did a great job of making it seem like Joe Namath, Y.A. Tittle and Johnny Unitas were supermen who could do nothing wrong. If you go back and watch the unedited games featuring these legends, you'd see just how human these guys really were on any given day!

So we may disagree on the Ozzie Smith thing, but it's nothing anyone will lose sleep over. You have shaped your opinion on solid talking points, and I'm happy to read the things you write.