Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

[sportscentury]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

I don't think IROD is out of the spotlight at all. Canseco outed him, he didn't file suit. He's guilty. His numbers are tainted. Without the roids he might be considered the best all around catcher of all-time. With them, who knows what will happen? How strong would his arm be without roids? How good would his bat be? Really, no one can answer those questions.

I'm thinking that 100% of the known roid cheats will minimally have to get shut down on their 1st ballot by voters. For others, much longer. Even after they get elected to the HOF they are tainted goods for life.

Hi, Scott -

I have to disagree. Yes, Pudge was mentioned in Canseco's book, along with several other players. Rumor is that Jose has another book coming out that will name even more players (perhaps Juan Iglesias can comment). And I don't doubt that Pudge used steroids. But when the discussion comes up in public (tv, newspaper, etc.), Giambi, Mac, Bonds, Raffy, etc., are always mentioned. It is seldom that Pudge is discussed. The fact that he isn't discussed nearly as much as other players has nothing to do with his innocence or guilt - it just means that he hasn't been the focus of media and fan attention, which I believe may be in his favor when he is considered for the Hall.

Of course, I agree with you entirely that we'll never know what the stats would be (for Pudge, Mac, Bonds, etc.) if no steroids had been used. Still, we could say the same thing with respect to corking bats, putting vaseline, spit, and pine tar on baseballs, and all other forms of cheating. Steroid use has been terrible for baseball, and it disgusts me that many players are likely guilty, but I'm not sure why other forms of cheating seem to be so widely accepted. For example, Gaylord Perry is a terribly nice guy (I've met him and talked with him on a few occasions), but using vaseline did not keep him out of the Hall and no one seems to be particularly upset with him for the form of cheating that he preferred.

Best,
Reid

[Nnunnari]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

There's no doubt that Pudge juiced but he'll get in along with all the other greats from the steroid era. You can't leave an entire era out of the Hall, these guys were great players. Everybody was juicing so it was somewhat of an even playing field. How many homers has Bonds hit off of Juiced pitchers? The game has evolved and changed over the years because the American public wants more action (longer hit balls, harder thrown balls) this is why baseball has turned its back on steroids. Were Hank Aaron and Willie Mays facing facing three, four different pitchers a game? Facing specialty relievers who are juiced and throwing 95-97 mph, then an unhittable closer? They faced one tired and non-juiced pitcher for four at bats a game, a definite advantage for the hitter, that's the beauty of baseball everything always evens out over time and the stats don't lie. Once all of the old timers and voters come to this realization they'll let in the great juiced players of the '90s (bonds, mcgwire, sosa, pudge, bagwell, alomar, clemens, sheffield, biggio) Palmeiro and McGriff will get shafted.

[byergo]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

I don't think IROD is out of the spotlight at all. Canseco outed him, he didn't file suit. He's guilty. His numbers are tainted. Without the roids he might be considered the best all around catcher of all-time. With them, who knows what will happen? How strong would his arm be without roids? How good would his bat be? Really, no one can answer those questions.

I'm thinking that 100% of the known roid cheats will minimally have to get shut down on their 1st ballot by voters. For others, much longer. Even after they get elected to the HOF they are tainted goods for life.

[sportscentury]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

As other members have noted, Henderson and Alomar are locks for the Hall. Alomar may not get in on the first ballot due to the spitting incident and a general dislike for him among some writers (though he is one of the best 2-baggers of all time, no doubt, and deserves to get in on the first ballot). Barry Larkin also put up some serious numbers.

Ted Simmons is a different story entirely. Offensively, he was terrific. Defensively, though, he was mediocre at best, and quite often was downright poor. Base-runners ran on him as though he was a joke. I liken him to Mike Piazza. Simmons (and Piazza) was only half of a player. I wouldn't want either behind the plate, though I would happily have either batting for my team. Both were DH players in disguise. It doesn't surprise me much that Simmons has received only modest support for the Hall. Unfortunately, the Hall has been watered down over the years in that some good (but not incredible by any means) players have been inducted. It is a shame for the true standouts. Unfortunately for Simmons, he has not been one of the players to benefit from the dilution.

The buzz at the Hall this year was that Rice and Gossage will be elected to the Hall in 2008. No one I spoke with (in terms of people who actually have votes) supported McGwire. I think Raffy has no chance. Pudge will be an interesting case. Most folks believe that he used steroids, but he has done a great job of staying out of the spotlight. There is enough speculation about his steroid use, though, that I doubt highly that he will get in on the first ballot, despite his amazing all-around numbers as a catcher.

[byergo]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

IROD took roids. His HOF chances are very much in question. What numbers would the great catchers of lore have put if they juiced? We will never know.

[harpt]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

Simmons' top similarity scores are as follows, courtesy of baseball-reference.com * indicates a Hall of Famer.

1. Joe Torre (881)
2. Lou Whitaker (871)
3. B.J. Surhoff (865)
4. Buddy Bell (857)
5. Alan Trammell (853)
6. Carlton Fisk (850) *
7. Ryne Sandberg (847) *
8. Gary Carter (845) *
9. Bobby Doerr (841) *
10. Ivan Rodriguez (838)

Yeah, the guy is an 8 time all-star. I think it is worth noting too that he was a switch-hitting catcher who hit better than .300 like 8 or 9 times.

His numbers compare favorably to Fisk and Carter (as mentioned above) and even Bench. Less homeruns (248), but nearly 1,400 RBI.

[godwulf]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

I just heard an interview with Williams on XM Radio last night. He's a really good guy.

I've gotten to meet Matty several times, and he's absolutely the most personable and friendly guy you can imagine. I've collected 24 of his game-used bats, and he has taken the time to discuss them with me at length, and always takes the time to sign a perfect autograph in the best spot possible on each one. The morning back in '03 that I found out he'd been released, I shaved my head in tribute...so I guess you could say that I'm a little bit of a fan.

[richpick]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

Of the eligible players, Henderson and Alomar are no brainers, Henderson being the greatest leadoff hitter of all time and Alomar being one of the greatest second baseman ever ( I think people forget how good he was). Another guy that should get in is McGriff, I don't know how nobody has mentioned him yet. 493 career hrs 2,500 hits. He had 7 straight years of 30+ hrs and 10 30+ hr years in his career- was one of the top 5 most feared sluggers in the '90s and was a critical part of the Braves dynasty helping them win a World Series (not to mention was a non-steroid guy in the steroid era).
I don't see Larkin getting in any time soon and probably ever- 2340 h & 198 hrs in an 18 yr career are nice but not eye popping numbers. Never really had a dominating year other than '96.
If Edgar Martinez wasn't strictly a dh he'd probably have a shot.

I agree with you about Henderson and Alomar but do you think that Roberto Alomar will have trouble first time from the spitting incident? As far as Barry Larkin the Reds made him their poster child for so long as a maquee player but his numbers were not that good except '96 as you mentioned.

[Nnunnari]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

Of the eligible players, Henderson and Alomar are no brainers, Henderson being the greatest leadoff hitter of all time and Alomar being one of the greatest second baseman ever ( I think people forget how good he was). Another guy that should get in is McGriff, I don't know how nobody has mentioned him yet. 493 career hrs 2,500 hits. He had 7 straight years of 30+ hrs and 10 30+ hr years in his career- was one of the top 5 most feared sluggers in the '90s and was a critical part of the Braves dynasty helping them win a World Series (not to mention was a non-steroid guy in the steroid era).
I don't see Larkin getting in any time soon and probably ever- 2340 h & 198 hrs in an 18 yr career are nice but not eye popping numbers. Never really had a dominating year other than '96.
If Edgar Martinez wasn't strictly a dh he'd probably have a shot.

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

I realize that his numbers aren't really there, but I still wish that there were some way for Matty Williams to enter the Hall. I like the man, and my admiration for him as a Ballplayer knows no bounds.

I just heard an interview with Williams on XM Radio last night. He's a really good guy.

[godwulf]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

I realize that his numbers aren't really there, but I still wish that there were some way for Matty Williams to enter the Hall. I like the man, and my admiration for him as a Ballplayer knows no bounds.

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

Off this list, all I see is Larkin, Rickey, and Robbie Alomar.

Ken

[Nathan]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

Simmons' top similarity scores are as follows, courtesy of baseball-reference.com * indicates a Hall of Famer.

1. Joe Torre (881)
2. Lou Whitaker (871)
3. B.J. Surhoff (865)
4. Buddy Bell (857)
5. Alan Trammell (853)
6. Carlton Fisk (850) *
7. Ryne Sandberg (847) *
8. Gary Carter (845) *
9. Bobby Doerr (841) *
10. Ivan Rodriguez (838)

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

ok thats all jumbled........here's the link http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...61/ai_88575158

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Future Hall of Famers? Future Eligibility

I would have argued against Simmons but then I found this......

HOW TED SIMMONS RATES WITH HALL OF FAME CATCHERSRUNSCarlton Fisk 1,276Yogi Berra 1,175Buck Ewing 1,118Johnny Bench 1,091Ted Simmons 1,074Mickey Cochrane 1,041Bill Dickey 930Gabby Hartnett 867Rick Ferrell 687Roger Bresnahan 684Roy Campanella 627Ernie Lombardi 601Ray Schalk 579HITSTed Simmons 2,472Carlton Fisk 2,356Yogi Berra 2,150Johnny Bench 2,048Bill Dickey 1,969Gabby Hartnett 1,912Ernie Lombardi 1,792Rick Ferrell 1,692Buck Ewing 1,663Mickey Cochrane 1,652Ray Schalk 1,345Roger Bresnahan 1,251Roy Campanella 1,161DOUBLESTed Simmons 483Carlton Fisk 421Gabby Hartnett 396Johnny Bench 381Bill Dickey 343Mickey Cochrane 333Rick Ferrell 324Yogi Berra 321Ernie Lombardi 277Buck Ewing 237Roger Bresnahan 222Ray Schalk 199Roy Companella 178HOME RUNSJohnny Bench 389Carlton Fisk 376Yogi Berra 358Ted Simmons 248Roy Campanella 242Gabby Hartnett 236Bill Dickey 202Ernie Lombardi 190Mickey Cochrane 119Buck Ewing 66Rick Ferrell 28Roger Bresnahan 26Ray Schalk 12RBIYogi Berra 1,430Ted Simmons 1,389Carlton Fisk 1,386Johnny Bench 1,376Bill Dickey 1,209Gabby Hartnett 1,179Ernie Lombardi 990Buck Ewing 883Roy Campanella 856Mickey Cochrane 832Rick Ferrell 734Ray Schalk 596Roger Bresnahan 531BATTING AVERAGEMickey Cochrane .320Bill Dickey .313Ernie Lombardi .306Buck Ewing .303Gabby Hartnett .297Ted Simmons .285Yogi Berra .285Rick Ferrell .281Roger Bresnahan .279Roy Campanella .276Carlton Fisk .269Johnny Bench .267Ray Schalk .253GAMES CAUGHTCarlton Fisk 2,226Rick Ferrell 1,806Gabby Hartnett 1,793Ted Simmons 1,771Johnny Bench 1,742Ray Schalk 1,727Bill Dickey 1,708Yogi Berra 1,699Ernie Lombardi 1,544Mickey Cochrane 1,451Roy Campanella 1,183Roger Bresnahan 974Buck Ewing 636FIELDING AVG. AS CATCHERListed are each catcher's careerfielding average (FA) as a catcherand the average fielding percentagefor catchers during hiscareer--League Fielding Percentage(LPCT)Catcher FA LPCTJohnny Bench .990 .987Yogi Berra .989 .987Bill Dickey .988 .982Roy Campanella .988 .984Carlton Fisk .988 .986Ted Simmons .987 .986Mickey Cochrane .985 .980Rick Ferrell .984 .982Gabby Hartnett .984 .978Ray Schalk .981 .971Ernie Lombardi .979 .980Roger Bresnahan .971 .968Buck Ewing .931 .906 Very interesting!