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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
my favorite:
me: "how do you accurately figure out what those standards should be?"
eric: "In regards with how to set a standard if you cant set a standard then you should not evaluate a jersey."
the word "how" threw him. Q: how do i peel an apple? A: if you can't peel an apple then you shouldn't peel an apple. #@! brilliant.
HOW eric. HOW do you set a standard? let's say you're a collector and you're trying to determine how 1990 A's NON-SPARE jerseys should be tagged. HOW do you do this? again, the imperative word in that sentence is "how". in determining what the tagging should be for 1990 A's NON-SPARE shirts do you:
a) examine full-roster common players?
b) examine full-roster common players AND full-roster superstars?
all i want to see in your next post is 1 letter; either A or B. that's it. type A or type B. pretend your keyboard only has 2 letters. after you've typed your letter, look at it. is your letter an A or is it a B? if the letter you typed is B, then elaborate what benefits B has over A.
rudy.Comment
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
Was in the middle of typing mine when Rudy posted his. Also there is nothing in my post that he did not say himself. You need to be clear in your posts. Not make generalized blanket statements. You need to realize their are new collectors. It's funny I bring to light an issue that still no long time hobbyist can prove regarding the borderless jerseys and people want to get mad at me. Even Dave Medina's research only brought more questions and no answers and now the feeling that blue border jerseys could also be retails? Funny I thought blue bordered jerseys were 100% gamers well at least accoarding to Mr. Lewis. When are we all just going to admit that it is a tag vartaion and that there is no evidence of it being anything more than that?Comment
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
I'm pretty sure Rudy is asking for someone to give us a decent sample of a common Red Sox jersey without the blue border tags in the 70's. If you include star players in your research, the experiment is not as accurate. We can make a better assumption that Red Sox fans in the mid 70's were not running over to the McAulife store for a Jim Willoughby, Bob Bailey or Doug Griffin jersey. It's extremley likely that if McAulife was selling jerseys to the public, the first shirts going out the door were Yaz, Fisk, Lynn and Rice. Once we have a decent selection of commons, the stars can be included.Mike
Looking for any White Sox jersey from Richie Zisk.
My website - http://www.freewebs.com/karamaxjoe/
"There are only two seasons - winter and Baseball"
~ Bill Veeck
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
b. as only taking a portion of the sample or eliminating the stars serves no purpose.
The standard should be based upon all known examples. Then you look at each shirt individually an account for variations. You can't just say a common A's is tagged this way so all A's shirts should be. That is irresponsible and incomplete research. If there are 75 1990 A's examples to chose from you look at all 75 regardless of the player and then make your conclusion.Comment
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
karamaxjoe how many non blue bordered shirts exist? That would be the better test? If there are an equal number of non bordered vs bordered than what would that mean? I dont care if it is a star or a common we have seen examples of both stars and commons without the border. We have seen no evidence of being able to order direct from McAuliffe and until that is proven to be the case then the only conclusion that can be drawn is it is a tag variation.Comment
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
At this point it doesn't matter how many blue bordered shirts exist. I would like to see some common Red Sox borderless tagged shirts. Does anyone on the forum have any? Produce some common playered blue borderless tagged shirts and you'll sway this entire arguement your way.Mike
Looking for any White Sox jersey from Richie Zisk.
My website - http://www.freewebs.com/karamaxjoe/
"There are only two seasons - winter and Baseball"
~ Bill Veeck
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
Since Dave M has gone back and forth back and forth I would like him to explain the LOA he wrote for the 1977 Yaz jersey that lacks a blue border that
Jim Carvalleo posted for sale on GUU in Jan 2008.
Dave last week you trusted Lon Lewis on lack of blue border, however it appears as though in Jan of 2008 or eariler depending upon when the LOA was written you did not. What changed your mind?Comment
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
I am still looking for common player Red Sox blue borderless jerseys, but came across this one...was Tony Armas considered a "star" in 1980?
http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=509&lot=224
Lelands past auctions has some common jerseys of Red Sox players, but no close ups of the tags...Comment
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
beantown search Yastrzemski on this site look at the 77 Yaz borderless WITH DAVE MEDINA COA. Dave seemed sure last week that lack of blue border was a retail and sided with Lon Lewis, guess Dave M forgot that he wrote a letter on the Yaz.Comment
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
that armas shirt looks brand newComment
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
Flaco,
I currently owned that Armas jersey as I was the high bidder on the Lelands auction. I would say on a scale of:
Brand new 1,
Light use 2,3,4,
Medium use 5,6,7 and
Heavy use 8,9,10
I would rate the jersey a solid 4.
The jersey has some small stains that are mostly in the tail and some on the back near the number. All tags show medium puckering and the back #11 has puckering as well.
Again, as I compare this jersey to my other 50+ McAuliffe A's knits it exhibits light to medium use.
MarkComment
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
Interesting...
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
Forum Members.
I cannot tell as Lelands did not take a photo of the tagging in the top of the shirt, but they have a 1978 Mike Torrez, McAuliffe grey knit on their website. It is very hard to tell, but if you blow it up it appears to look like a non-blue border tag. Would most of us call Torrez a common player or maybe I do not know my Red Sox players??
Sorry all I collect are A's McAuliffe jerseys, but I would not put Torrez in the same category with Lynn, Rice, Yaz and Fisk.
Mark
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Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?
greatly reducing the chance of fakes seems to be pretty important purpose if the point is to arrive at an accurate conclusion.
if we tossed in all the HOFers, like you suggest, then how would you deal with the substantial risk of fakes contaminating the results? let me guess, you'd just weed the fakes out right? good luck. of course not a single one would slip by you. i can't think of a single individual with a perfect track record but then i guess we've never seen you in action. myself, i think a few might get past me which is why i wouldn't want to chance it. even if 1 or 2 got past me, the results would be skewed and the experiment trashed. i agree that your system would work if some perfect genius manages to catch every single one of the fakes. nice odds. mears tossed some HOFers into the mix in their analysis. this being the same firm that A10'd several horrific bonds shirts so i'm definitely sure that they'd be able to catch each and every fake yaz, fisk, and reggie that came their way right?
and then when your results come out how do you address all the folks like me saying that it's possible that some fake HOFers slipped by you and skewed the results? "oh no, i caught them all. trust me".
or you could just entirely avoid that risk and use only commons. if you evaluated some gallegos, honeycutts, blankenships, bordicks, howitts, and lansfords, i'd say you'd have a very good idea of how the 1990 A's tagged their non-spare shirts. if you tossed in a mcgwire your accuracy wouldn't increase. all you'd do is run the risk of screwing the whole thing up because a fake got past you. plus, those results wouldn't be questioned by others as they would if HOFers had been used.
ultimately, i realize that having this discussion with a guy currently trying to sell a borderless fred lynn is like trying to explain how tasty a pulled pork sandwich is to a pig. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it". a man with skin in the game usually isn't the most objective in the room. on that note, if mears, hypothetically speaking, comes to the eventual conclusion that borderless tags were for retail shirts, what are they going to do about all of the borderless jerseys they've already authenticated? announce a big buyback program? and on that note, how is mears only now investigating this issue after they've already authenticated many mcauliffe shirts? they don't know if mcauliffe made retail shirts and, if they did, how to tell them apart but they went ahead and declared themselves fit to authenticate mcauliffe shirts? isn't that the sort of basic info you learn before you start printing out the LOAs? how's it work at mears..authenticate the shirt first and then learn the difference between pro and retail?
i don't know which way the pendulum is going to swing here. i just hope that whatever conclusion is reached is the right one. i just wanted to put forth the idea that excluding star HOFers would be a wise thing to do in terms of reaching an accurate conclusion. if people can round up a whole slew of common gamers with borderless tags then i think it'd carry a ton of weight. personally, as a collector, i wouldn't put much stock into tag, font, or stitching analysis that focused heavily on HOF jerseys.
rudy.Comment
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