Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

[gingi79]

I have been a collector of "things" since 1987. I posted previously on my fears of a proverbial "bubble" popping in the hobby and values nosediving like Wall Street in 1929. This post is a little more specific. I am not going to lie as 3 items from my collection helped inspire the inquiry.

I own a high end ex-superstar's jersey from a banner season that comes with paperwork from 2 well respected dealers and the most respected dealer/authenticator in the hobby. It shows nice use, has team repairs, a player specific alteration and I can trace it's ownership back fairly far. The only thing it doesn't have, is a photo of him wearing it.

Second is a one of a kind jersey worn in the players only 3 games with the team. The style was made as an authentic but I have never seen one made available. The player is not really popular, the use is minimal but the font, style, numbering and sewing are all team specific. It also has a patch that was never made available to the public.

Third is a one game wonder, easily replicated and desirable. In the coming year, I expect the price of buying a blank will be dirt cheap but their number font is very specific and intricate. Since the player was on the team for only 3 games and the team folded, collectors of the team and sport find it desirable for it's rarity. It comes with a team LOA and was purchased directly from the team (and I saved all emails with the team as well.) Thankfully, I was able to videomatch it to a very small burn on the sleeve as well.

I bring this up because the overwhelming number of collectors who post here, do so with some tact and with an interest in teaching and we all seem to be coming from a desire to safeguard our hobby. An example is how quickly so many members can post photos to confirm or deny an items characteristics. So I pose this to you:

In the future, will this hobby reject items outright when they don't come with conclusive photomatches? I'm not talking about stuff from before 2004 but rather considering sites like Getty have photos of nearly every game and every player, will items without conclusive matches be seen as worth significantly less or even dismissed as fake outright simply because it isn't matched?

One of the first lesson I was taught in this hobby was that LOA's don't make an item real, the fact it is real does. Lampson for example, can't make a jersey actually game worn by claiming it is but he also can't make it fake because he claims it isn't. When you consider jerseys are more readily available than ever before, GI and blanks are easily attainable and the hobby is growing, what is a logical end point?

Recent posts (and many not so recent posts) have made it clear that high end items are being proported as real, in correct size, font and player specific modifications and they aren't real. Are we heading to a place where even JO and MeiGray will be forced to show photographic matches to prove authenticity? Is that really as awesome as it sounds or will it kill the value and collectability of EVERY non-matched item someone claims was used in an actual game by the actual player?

[Dolphins23]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

You see ging I never understood the whole photo match and quite frankly i think its overated big time. I have an interesting theory.

Lets say Johnny owns a game worn jersey of Dan Marino and shows a dirt stain on the front number of the jersey the 3 lets say. What if the pictures on getty images were taken of Dan before he was tackled into the dirt which caused the stain. And a person takes a picture from that game showing his jersey dosn't have the stain (not knowing it happend at a later time in the game, and getty dosn't have the picture of him with the stain up). I think photo matching is very overated and def will not stop me from buying. Yeah a photo match is a cool story piece but its not everything at all. This is my opinion. I don't know how other collectors feel, but yeah a photo match is def ehhhh IMO.

Just put in the Terrell Owens thread into effect. No one could really match the members jersey, and he was starting to get worried that it was maybe from a diferent game other then the game JO sports had listed.

Unfortunetly this hobby may one day come to the point where no photo match equals no money

[masp3392]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

I have been a collector of "things" since 1987. I posted previously on my fears of a proverbial "bubble" popping in the hobby and values nosediving like Wall Street in 1929. This post is a little more specific. I am not going to lie as 3 items from my collection helped inspire the inquiry.

I own a high end ex-superstar's jersey from a banner season that comes with paperwork from 2 well respected dealers and the most respected dealer/authenticator in the hobby. It shows nice use, has team repairs, a player specific alteration and I can trace it's ownership back fairly far. The only thing it doesn't have, is a photo of him wearing it.

Second is a one of a kind jersey worn in the players only 3 games with the team. The style was made as an authentic but I have never seen one made available. The player is not really popular, the use is minimal but the font, style, numbering and sewing are all team specific. It also has a patch that was never made available to the public.

Third is a one game wonder, easily replicated and desirable. In the coming year, I expect the price of buying a blank will be dirt cheap but their number font is very specific and intricate. Since the player was on the team for only 3 games and the team folded, collectors of the team and sport find it desirable for it's rarity. It comes with a team LOA and was purchased directly from the team (and I saved all emails with the team as well.) Thankfully, I was able to videomatch it to a very small burn on the sleeve as well.

I bring this up because the overwhelming number of collectors who post here, do so with some tact and with an interest in teaching and we all seem to be coming from a desire to safeguard our hobby. An example is how quickly so many members can post photos to confirm or deny an items characteristics. So I pose this to you:

In the future, will this hobby reject items outright when they don't come with conclusive photomatches? I'm not talking about stuff from before 2004 but rather considering sites like Getty have photos of nearly every game and every player, will items without conclusive matches be seen as worth significantly less or even dismissed as fake outright simply because it isn't matched?

One of the first lesson I was taught in this hobby was that LOA's don't make an item real, the fact it is real does. Lampson for example, can't make a jersey actually game worn by claiming it is but he also can't make it fake because he claims it isn't. When you consider jerseys are more readily available than ever before, GI and blanks are easily attainable and the hobby is growing, what is a logical end point?

Recent posts (and many not so recent posts) have made it clear that high end items are being proported as real, in correct size, font and player specific modifications and they aren't real. Are we heading to a place where even JO and MeiGray will be forced to show photographic matches to prove authenticity? Is that really as awesome as it sounds or will it kill the value and collectability of EVERY non-matched item someone claims was used in an actual game by the actual player?

great topic

In my opinion i think it definitly will happen. Now you see more and more that LOA's/COA's/ can definitly be faked and be nothing but fraud. Companies like JO definitly have everyone's trust, I dont think someone has been frauded by them and if they have the odds of that happening with JO is minimal.

On that note, unless its a company people know about, can trust, has been in the business for awhile, photomatched items will probably become the dominant way of securing your trust in the jersey.

Im all for it

[masp3392]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

You see ging I never understood the whole photo match and quite frankly i think its overated big time. I have an interesting theory.

Lets say Johnny owns a game worn jersey of Dan Marino and shows a dirt stain on the front number of the jersey the 3 lets say. What if the pictures on getty images were taken of Dan before he was tackled into the dirt which caused the stain. And a person takes a picture from that game showing his jersey dosn't have the stain (not knowing it happend at a later time in the game, and getty dosn't have the picture of him with the stain up). I think photo matching is very overated and def will not stop me from buying. Yeah a photo match is a cool story piece but its not everything at all. This is my opinion. I don't know how other collectors feel, but yeah a photo match is def ehhhh IMO.

Just put in the Terrell Owens thread into effect. No one could really match the members jersey, and he was starting to get worried that it was maybe from a diferent game other then the game JO sports had listed.

Unfortunetly this hobby may one day come to the point where no photo match equals no money

Thats a great example and alot of people do that.

For example, lets take yours:

If someone has a game worn dan marino jersey thats beat to crap with dirt, stains, hit marks, repairs, etc ... and you post a photomatch of his jersey during the pregame, that would be a deal breaker for me and wouldn't constitute a "photomatch".

2 ways to prove:

1) If you have the beat up jersey and post a photomatch of the jersey while its clean (pregame), If you can definitively prove the photomatch by a certain strand, loose thread, patch placement, etc (and it better be good) ill consider.

2) If you have the beat up jersey and you have photos during the game with specific hit marks, tears, stains, etc ... that would be more definitive and holds more weight.

[jppopma]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

I think a photomatch will help sell a jersey, maybe even increase the price. But I don't feel that non matched jerseys will never be dismissed.

Doing your homework and buying from reputable sellers together will often hold as much weight as a photomatch.

As we have seen on here, even with a perfect photomatch there will be naysayers. Personally, I don't care about photomatches nor have the time to go through all of my jerseys looking for matches either.

[freddiefreeman5]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

I only collect for my own enjoyment so I could careless what the "hobby" cares about.

[WadeInBmore]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

I think the photomatch is a very NEAT thing however I DO NOT see them ruling the roost as the hobby progresses. My feeling for this is based on the fact that the game used hobby long exhisted before Getty images and mass photos were taken daily at EVERY sporting event. It wasn't until what, 2006, that a noticable increase in the amount of photos available became standard. MLB tv only goes back to 06 as well. All the items prior to this anomaly will and should maintain their value and shouldn't be looked at as lesser items. Chances are if you can't photomatch an item from 1992 today, even in 20 years you will still won't be able to photomatch it because the images simply don't exist...it doesn't mean the jersey is no good.

I think what we are seeing is the evolution of a hobby AND technology. Even MLB authenicators weren't as prevelent in 01 when they first started...now look at them, they are everywhere. The hobby had a standard and when that standard changes so does the hobby but never is that old standard cast aside and treated as false or insifficient, just out dated and the "old school" way.

Wade

[commando]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

Photo matches are becoming more necessary for newer jerseys with no provenance. How many Jordans show up on eBay with nothing but a thin story, or a LOA from someone you've never heard of? Buying jerseys manufactured over the past 20 years can get very tricky, especially for the stars and superstars.

Older jerseys still tell their own stories, by and large, and should continue to do just fine if you know which clues to look for.

[kellsox]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

I've always thought that photo matching on items from the last few years has been overrated in the sense that many collectors/ dealers seem to add a premium to the value of the photo matched item. Speaking about MLB holo'd items, the database tells you when the item was used/ collected, a photo match only verifies what the database says. The MLB system is trusted by most as a method of authentic items obtained directly from teams. Why should the photo match add value??? There will always be means to obtain items outside of the major hobby distributors and if the appropriate HW is done these item still have value and desirability.
What I think will hurt the hobby is sheer volume of jerseys and equipment being used and put on the market. A flood seems inevitable. Everything that hits the field endsmup for sale Think about it - an NFL player plays 16 games a season for 6 years- that's close to 100 jerseys for that individual. Or an MLB player plays 10 seasons at 162 games per year. If they use 10-15 jerseys per year( which may be on the lower side) you can be looking at up to 150 jerseys on the market. If you want one you can easily get one.the supply will eventually overrun the demand.

[Mulligans]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

I like to start with solid paperwork and then try to photo match it......

Last year I purchased a high end football Jersey which was perfectly photo matched in 4 locations including recognizable staining, hit marks and a one of a kind nameplate location. It also came with a letter of provenance which was weak, but one just the same.

After some questions arose, One thing led to another and I spent a year in court with this well known forger. I ultimately prevailed and received all of my money back plus some.

Just because it is a great photo match doesn't always mean it's the real deal....the forger I dealt with went through painstaking detail to make this Jersey PERFECT.....all he had to do was find the pictures first to work from.

I truly learned a lot from my experience.......

[Number13]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

I only collect for my own enjoyment so I could careless what the "hobby" cares about.

Same here. I got into it to have fun more than anything else.

[solarlottry]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

I like to start with solid paperwork and then try to photo match it......

Last year I purchased a high end football Jersey which was perfectly photo matched in 4 locations including recognizable staining, hit marks and a one of a kind nameplate location. It also came with a letter of provenance which was weak, but one just the same.

After some questions arose, One thing led to another and I spent a year in court with this well known forger. I ultimately prevailed and received all of my money back plus some.

Just because it is a great photo match doesn't always mean it's the real deal....the forger I dealt with went through painstaking detail to make this Jersey PERFECT.....all he had to do was find the pictures first to work from.

I truly learned a lot from my experience.......

If I remember correctly it might have been a Brady gamer worn in the playoffs vs. the Jets? There was a thread about it and the give-away was how the tail was trimmed-i think. It was a really good forgery though! It is amazing what extent people will go to make $$$$. I am glad that it worked itself out although court and lawyers cannot be cheap. It must also be quite stressful.

You may not be able to provide the forum with any details of the court or legal battle but I think that knowing how hard it is to get your $ back might be an important lesson to every forum member. Doing one's homework is oh so crucial in this hobby! In fact by NOT doing my homework I sent back a perfectly good jersey that I regret to this very day. I was lucky enough (or unlucky in this case!) that the seller quickly refunded my money.

The fact that there is another thread up now trying to match the TO shirt supposedly worn vs. the Jets but cannot be matched to that game is interesting. The shirt has been matched to two other games but not the one it was supposedly worn in!!! Even from a source as reputable as JO a good photo-match is not easy.

Always buying 49ers shirts!
paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[Dolphins23]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

I like to start with solid paperwork and then try to photo match it......

Last year I purchased a high end football Jersey which was perfectly photo matched in 4 locations including recognizable staining, hit marks and a one of a kind nameplate location. It also came with a letter of provenance which was weak, but one just the same.

After some questions arose, One thing led to another and I spent a year in court with this well known forger. I ultimately prevailed and received all of my money back plus some.

Just because it is a great photo match doesn't always mean it's the real deal....the forger I dealt with went through painstaking detail to make this Jersey PERFECT.....all he had to do was find the pictures first to work from.

I truly learned a lot from my experience.......

WOW MULLIGANS! I'm so sorry. I'm currently going through the same thing with what was supposed to be a game worn Chad Pennington helmet! They guy scammed me and I shipped the Helmet back to him in hopes to get my money back.

I hope the guy who forged your jersey isin't who I'm thinking of

[freddiefreeman5]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

Just shows that nothing is foolproof.
Even if I see the player take the jersey off and he signs it in front of me, the only person who will know its real is me and the player.

[Dach0sen0ne]

Re: Will the future hobby dismiss all non photomatched items?

Photomatching is just like doing your homework. Just becuase some MLB Authenticator puts something in a database, should I believe it? Nobody is perfect and EVERYONE makes mistakes. Here is an example FJ593185. Can someone tell me what the problem is??