Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

[brianborsch]

Hello all,

I just want to get your thoughts on the above. I have a guy who claims he is a collector, but that if an item doesn't have an LOA/COA then it is worthless (even with a photomatch).
I have tried to explain that anyone can make a LOA/COA easier than doctoring an item and that there are plenty of COA's/LOA's that are erroneous!
I just couldn't believe the ridiculousness of this individual!

[gingi79]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

If I could fake wear and doctor a jersey to look game worn, what would stop me from typing a letter claiming it was real?

Considering how many dealers have been outed as frauds, a photomatch is the only validation of authenticity

[brianborsch]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

I know! This joker is messaging me because he wants an item I have but my price is high, so he proceeds to tell me my item is fake and not worth as much because there is no LOA/COA?! Even though I have photos matching the bat! Any way it's just funny.

[Mulligans]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

I Collect mainly Football Jerseys of present day players and unfortunately I fall into the camp of your buyer. I will only collect Jerseys from a small handful of originators and rarely anything without a COA. I always try to match stains, logos, numbers etc. for further confirmation.

I also agree with the value argument. IMO, A present day football Jersey without paperwork seems to sell for at least 3x less than a well documented jersey.

I wasn't always like this.....I've just been screwed so many times by forgers its just the way it is now. Forgers also specialize in COAs so you need to be extra careful in viewing the paperwork.

That being said, you can't have It both ways by saying you are an interested buyer, but want it for less because it has no paperwork?

[gaytorhater703]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

i think COA's are pretty worthless.......give me a photomatch any day

[frikativ54]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

When I buy jerseys for my Bagwell collection, the first thing I do is look for a photomatch. If I can't find one, then I refrain from buying the shirt. However, if it had an Astros' team letter, that would factor into my decision but wouldn't be the deciding factor like a photomatch would. This is the case with my collecting Bagwell, who played from 1991 through 2005.

However, if I can get a jersey of a contemporary player, then the first thing I look for is MLB authentication. Yeah, it's not a 100 percent guarantee, but I feel pretty comfortable with items with both the issued and used MLB holograms. If it comes directly from the team, I have a great amount of trust in that. Such is the case with my Mariners' jerseys and hats.

[frikativ54]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

Now that I think about it, I feel a bit differently about World Series jerseys. Although my Bagwell has a solid photomatch, I sure wish it had MLB Authentication as well. However, in this case, when given the choice between a photomatch and a hologram, I would take the former.

The hologram lends credence, but it's not the be-all and end-all. Especially if it's issued, since some teams added WS patches to all their jerseys. The Astros didn't do that, but still...I like what the Rangers did with their 2011 WS shirts. They tagged the ones with use as game used right after the game.

[jdhbraves]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

People are more concerned about if an item has a coa or a hologram than the actual item. I concede that the need for holograms and coa's are ingrained in the community but the item in question should stand on its on, regardless of holograms or coa. Further, an item doesnt need a coa to be authentic. Many of the nicest jerseys i have seen didnt have a coa.

[35th&Shields]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

I know when I buy, COA's or LOA's are the last thing that I look at. Heck! one of my jerseys has no interior tag in it along with no COA or LOA. It is however the proper size for the player, has appropriate strip tag, consistent use and matched all day. Gives me complete confidence its 110% legit.

[otismalibu]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

If you're talking a true photo match, how can that be topped? But I still think many collectors, dealers, etc. use the term 'photo match' when it's actually nothing more than a style match.

My girlfriend is Marisa Miller vs. my girlfriend looks similar to Marisa Miller. A wee bit of a difference.

[ousooner_85]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

I'm fairly new to the game used business but I put alot of value in a solid true photo match. It's just hard to beat that photo of the perfect matching stain, rip or smudge! The COA business has become so diluted and unreliable with the exception of the few major companies we put most of our trust into. It's my opinion that the majority of collectors in general like to have a COA. Granted many are uneducated and think any COA saying it's real, makes it real....when obviously thats not the case! While a style match doesn't tie actual game use to a particular item, it at least gives us a starting point for a solid photo match. Where as a worthless COA from a random individual or company only gives us something to start a fire with.

[Mulligans]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

If you're talking a true photo match, how can that be topped? But I still think many collectors, dealers, etc. use the term 'photo match' when it's actually nothing more than a style match.

Well said....How many Jerseys can you photo match when you don't even own the Jersey and all you have is a couple of photos from some auction site?

What percent of Sports Jerseys can you "conclusively" photo matched anyway? Single Digits? That's even a struggle if you are not personally holding it in your hands and rarely does someone give you the opportunity to check it out first.

In my opinion, a perfect example in regards to the value question is the MJD on AMI (without paperwork)....its apparently game specific, but seems virtually impossible to conclusively photo match....Probably why a $4000 Jersey can't even garner a 1K bid? If it originated from NFL Auctions even without a perfect photo match, I'm guessing it would still get close to 4K without troubles?

I guess that I'm extra critical as I have been burned once or twice by the "Engineered Photo match". Loose threads....Patch locations, forged stains....you name it....Its being done more than you can even imagine.

[frikativ54]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

I guess that I'm extra critical as I have been burned once or twice by the "Engineered Photo match". Loose threads....Patch locations, forged stains....you name it....Its being done more than you can even imagine.

In your case, how did you find out it was an engineered photomatch? How can we keep ourselves safe from that kind of thing? Thanks.

[Mulligans]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

In my opinion, the problem originates with Ebay, NFL Auctions, MLB Auctions and any other person or Company that is selling "Game issued", "Team Issued", "Pro Cut", "Game Cut" etc. Jerseys, Helmets, Pants etc....Not that there is anything wrong with it as they have done nothing with "ill intentions", but its just a fact.

Unfortunately, The Jersey, helmet etc. becomes the foundation of a forgery. "Professionals" are buying them and doctoring them in several ways. They start with a review of Getty, AP, USPress and all the other sites that we all frequent and find the perfect Jersey Characteristics and seem to focus on Patch locations, loose threads, tears, name plates that are askew, and especially "unique staining" which is easy to replicate (not usually the dirt and grass stains).

Here are a couple of things that I learned on my items as well as a couple of pointers guys have shared with me.

1. Nameplate matched the Getty Image perfectly but by turning the Jersey Inside out, I found that the name plate had been re sewn in one corner with a color of thread that was just slightly off from the original threading.
2. On one of my Jerseys, the Neck tags had been replaced. If you looked closely, you could see the empty thread holes and the new thread did not penetrate the old holes. The Guys at Mears taught me this.
3. If looking at loose threads or creases in the numbers, just try to be aware that these traits can be reproduced by a roll of thread or an Iron.
4. Remember that a sewing machine can duplicate a "Team Repair".....I used to think that a Team repair automatically meant that it was the "real deal" until I saw an example of an Ebayer who purchased a clean Jersey that later showed up with a team repair.
5. If buying from Ebay, check the sellers feedback to see if he is buying large amounts of Game Issued Jerseys, helmets, Patches etc. Also check if he is selling a large number of Game Used Items without Paperwork.There is one guy on eBay who sells nothing but high Profile NFL players at a discount, but he claims to know nothing about their origination?

Most of the forgeries seem to focus on the higher end items as I'm sure that there is a lot of effort put into it?

....Just a couple of things to consider, but I'm sure others have much more that they could share. I'm not saying that this is rampant, but its just another thing to watch out for.

[mikey68]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

In my opinion, the problem originates with Ebay, NFL Auctions, MLB Auctions and any other person or Company that is selling "Game issued", "Team Issued", "Pro Cut", "Game Cut" etc. Jerseys, Helmets, Pants etc....Not that there is anything wrong with it as they have done nothing with "ill intentions", but its just a fact.

Unfortunately, The Jersey, helmet etc. becomes the foundation of a forgery. "Professionals" are buying them and doctoring them in several ways. They start with a review of Getty, AP, USPress and all the other sites that we all frequent and find the perfect Jersey Characteristics and seem to focus on Patch locations, loose threads, tears, name plates that are askew, and especially "unique staining" which is easy to replicate (not usually the dirt and grass stains).

Here are a couple of things that I learned on my items as well as a couple of pointers guys have shared with me.

1. Nameplate matched the Getty Image perfectly but by turning the Jersey Inside out, I found that the name plate had been re sewn in one corner with a color of thread that was just slightly off from the original threading.
2. On one of my Jerseys, the Neck tags had been replaced. If you looked closely, you could see the empty thread holes and the new thread did not penetrate the old holes. The Guys at Mears taught me this.
3. If looking at loose threads or creases in the numbers, just try to be aware that these traits can be reproduced by a roll of thread or an Iron.
4. Remember that a sewing machine can duplicate a "Team Repair".....I used to think that a Team repair automatically meant that it was the "real deal" until I saw an example of an Ebayer who purchased a clean Jersey that later showed up with a team repair.
5. If buying from Ebay, check the sellers feedback to see if he is buying large amounts of Game Issued Jerseys, helmets, Patches etc. Also check if he is selling a large number of Game Used Items without Paperwork.There is one guy on eBay who sells nothing but high Profile NFL players at a discount, but he claims to know nothing about their origination?

Most of the forgeries seem to focus on the higher end items as I'm sure that there is a lot of effort put into it?

....Just a couple of things to consider, but I'm sure others have much more that they could share. I'm not saying that this is rampant, but its just another thing to watch out for.

That's great information and thanks for the research. The team repair comment really stands out as I've always thought that was a good indicator of game use. Just like with PED's, the bad guys are always one step ahead. Once again, great post!