Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

[kprst6]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

A piece of paper with some writing on it is... just a piece of paper with some writing on it. A hologram on something is... just a hologram on something. There is no way to know something is 100% authentic without a solid photo-match. Some of the comments in this thread are ridiculous at best. There are plenty of items that were mislabeled or even fake that have come directly from the NFL, MLB, MLB teams and auctions with legitimate COA's. There is no way I would buy a $5,000.00 item just because a piece of paper says it's real. You must always do your homework and compare to other examples of the same player, year, etc. There is way to much generalization with no proof. Show me examples of these so called dealers that say an item is photo-matched when its just a reference?

[joelsabi]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

Oh, I'm sure the usual suspects are adding 'light but definite use' as we speak. I've just heard too many tales about 'respected' sources.



I've never really understood A5 grade. Maybe - maybe not. Still, I'm sure there are many that are triple matted and framed.

I've never understood 'light but definite use' either.

[otismalibu]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

I state the obvious to show my reasoning. I am not an expert of forging game use but I am thinking game usage can be forged given enough time and dedication through trial an error. People forge master paintings. I imagine marks and tear on jersey can be forged. When that time comes, it will go back to where did the jersey come from, ie. a respect COA.

Oh, I'm sure the usual suspects are adding 'light but definite use' as we speak. I've just heard too many tales about 'respected' sources.

I respect a Mears A10-A6 more than a do a Mear A5.

I've never really understood A5 grade. Maybe - maybe not. Still, I'm sure there are many that are triple matted and framed.

[joelsabi]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

A recent poll also suggests that 8/10 Americans prefer pleasure to pain.



Well, then it's NOT a photomatch is it?

If everyone had the same definition of 'photomatch', I don't see how it could ever be trumped by a style match.

How 'bout an atypical jersey (wrong size, incorrect NOB font) with 3 respected COAs?

Greg,
I state the obvious to show my reasoning. I am not an expert of forging game use but I am thinking game usage can be forged given enough time and dedication through trial an error. People forge master paintings. I imagine marks and tear on jersey can be forged. When that time comes, it will go back to where did the jersey come from, ie. a respect COA.

I respect a Mears A10-A6 more than a do a Mear A5.

[otismalibu]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

Conclusive Photomatch are better than a style match.

A recent poll also suggests that 8/10 Americans prefer pleasure to pain.

Many cases of photomatches are not conclusive.

Well, then it's NOT a photomatch is it?

If everyone had the same definition of 'photomatch', I don't see how it could ever be trumped by a style match.

How 'bout an atypical jersey (wrong size, incorrect NOB font) with 3 respected COAs?

[ousooner_85]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

Well said Joel....I like your way of thinking on the matter.

[joelsabi]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

1) All COA are not created equal. Team COA, COAs from respected third party authenticator with special knowledge, or COA from exclusive player dealers have more weight to me. Some COA are worthless to me such as a COA from a mom and pop sports memorabilia dealer. No COA is the same as a lost respected COA, destroyed COA, and a worthless COA.

2) Conclusive Photomatch are better than a style match. Many cases of photomatches are not conclusive. A style match however has its merits since its not about matching a photo but having the right characteristics for that jersey at that time period. Style match can be based on matching a star player jersey with a common players jersey. Comparing the player jersey to game photos of the teammate's jersey can also be helpful for a style match.

That being said my preference is
1) Photomatch with Respected COA
2) Stylematch with Respected COA
3) Photomatch with no COA or worthless COA
4) Stylematch with no COA

[mikey68]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

In my opinion, the problem originates with Ebay, NFL Auctions, MLB Auctions and any other person or Company that is selling "Game issued", "Team Issued", "Pro Cut", "Game Cut" etc. Jerseys, Helmets, Pants etc....Not that there is anything wrong with it as they have done nothing with "ill intentions", but its just a fact.

Unfortunately, The Jersey, helmet etc. becomes the foundation of a forgery. "Professionals" are buying them and doctoring them in several ways. They start with a review of Getty, AP, USPress and all the other sites that we all frequent and find the perfect Jersey Characteristics and seem to focus on Patch locations, loose threads, tears, name plates that are askew, and especially "unique staining" which is easy to replicate (not usually the dirt and grass stains).

Here are a couple of things that I learned on my items as well as a couple of pointers guys have shared with me.

1. Nameplate matched the Getty Image perfectly but by turning the Jersey Inside out, I found that the name plate had been re sewn in one corner with a color of thread that was just slightly off from the original threading.
2. On one of my Jerseys, the Neck tags had been replaced. If you looked closely, you could see the empty thread holes and the new thread did not penetrate the old holes. The Guys at Mears taught me this.
3. If looking at loose threads or creases in the numbers, just try to be aware that these traits can be reproduced by a roll of thread or an Iron.
4. Remember that a sewing machine can duplicate a "Team Repair".....I used to think that a Team repair automatically meant that it was the "real deal" until I saw an example of an Ebayer who purchased a clean Jersey that later showed up with a team repair.
5. If buying from Ebay, check the sellers feedback to see if he is buying large amounts of Game Issued Jerseys, helmets, Patches etc. Also check if he is selling a large number of Game Used Items without Paperwork.There is one guy on eBay who sells nothing but high Profile NFL players at a discount, but he claims to know nothing about their origination?

Most of the forgeries seem to focus on the higher end items as I'm sure that there is a lot of effort put into it?

....Just a couple of things to consider, but I'm sure others have much more that they could share. I'm not saying that this is rampant, but its just another thing to watch out for.

That's great information and thanks for the research. The team repair comment really stands out as I've always thought that was a good indicator of game use. Just like with PED's, the bad guys are always one step ahead. Once again, great post!

[Mulligans]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

In my opinion, the problem originates with Ebay, NFL Auctions, MLB Auctions and any other person or Company that is selling "Game issued", "Team Issued", "Pro Cut", "Game Cut" etc. Jerseys, Helmets, Pants etc....Not that there is anything wrong with it as they have done nothing with "ill intentions", but its just a fact.

Unfortunately, The Jersey, helmet etc. becomes the foundation of a forgery. "Professionals" are buying them and doctoring them in several ways. They start with a review of Getty, AP, USPress and all the other sites that we all frequent and find the perfect Jersey Characteristics and seem to focus on Patch locations, loose threads, tears, name plates that are askew, and especially "unique staining" which is easy to replicate (not usually the dirt and grass stains).

Here are a couple of things that I learned on my items as well as a couple of pointers guys have shared with me.

1. Nameplate matched the Getty Image perfectly but by turning the Jersey Inside out, I found that the name plate had been re sewn in one corner with a color of thread that was just slightly off from the original threading.
2. On one of my Jerseys, the Neck tags had been replaced. If you looked closely, you could see the empty thread holes and the new thread did not penetrate the old holes. The Guys at Mears taught me this.
3. If looking at loose threads or creases in the numbers, just try to be aware that these traits can be reproduced by a roll of thread or an Iron.
4. Remember that a sewing machine can duplicate a "Team Repair".....I used to think that a Team repair automatically meant that it was the "real deal" until I saw an example of an Ebayer who purchased a clean Jersey that later showed up with a team repair.
5. If buying from Ebay, check the sellers feedback to see if he is buying large amounts of Game Issued Jerseys, helmets, Patches etc. Also check if he is selling a large number of Game Used Items without Paperwork.There is one guy on eBay who sells nothing but high Profile NFL players at a discount, but he claims to know nothing about their origination?

Most of the forgeries seem to focus on the higher end items as I'm sure that there is a lot of effort put into it?

....Just a couple of things to consider, but I'm sure others have much more that they could share. I'm not saying that this is rampant, but its just another thing to watch out for.

[frikativ54]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

I guess that I'm extra critical as I have been burned once or twice by the "Engineered Photo match". Loose threads....Patch locations, forged stains....you name it....Its being done more than you can even imagine.

In your case, how did you find out it was an engineered photomatch? How can we keep ourselves safe from that kind of thing? Thanks.

[Mulligans]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

If you're talking a true photo match, how can that be topped? But I still think many collectors, dealers, etc. use the term 'photo match' when it's actually nothing more than a style match.

Well said....How many Jerseys can you photo match when you don't even own the Jersey and all you have is a couple of photos from some auction site?

What percent of Sports Jerseys can you "conclusively" photo matched anyway? Single Digits? That's even a struggle if you are not personally holding it in your hands and rarely does someone give you the opportunity to check it out first.

In my opinion, a perfect example in regards to the value question is the MJD on AMI (without paperwork)....its apparently game specific, but seems virtually impossible to conclusively photo match....Probably why a $4000 Jersey can't even garner a 1K bid? If it originated from NFL Auctions even without a perfect photo match, I'm guessing it would still get close to 4K without troubles?

I guess that I'm extra critical as I have been burned once or twice by the "Engineered Photo match". Loose threads....Patch locations, forged stains....you name it....Its being done more than you can even imagine.

[ousooner_85]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

I'm fairly new to the game used business but I put alot of value in a solid true photo match. It's just hard to beat that photo of the perfect matching stain, rip or smudge! The COA business has become so diluted and unreliable with the exception of the few major companies we put most of our trust into. It's my opinion that the majority of collectors in general like to have a COA. Granted many are uneducated and think any COA saying it's real, makes it real....when obviously thats not the case! While a style match doesn't tie actual game use to a particular item, it at least gives us a starting point for a solid photo match. Where as a worthless COA from a random individual or company only gives us something to start a fire with.

[otismalibu]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

If you're talking a true photo match, how can that be topped? But I still think many collectors, dealers, etc. use the term 'photo match' when it's actually nothing more than a style match.

My girlfriend is Marisa Miller vs. my girlfriend looks similar to Marisa Miller. A wee bit of a difference.

[35th&Shields]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

I know when I buy, COA's or LOA's are the last thing that I look at. Heck! one of my jerseys has no interior tag in it along with no COA or LOA. It is however the proper size for the player, has appropriate strip tag, consistent use and matched all day. Gives me complete confidence its 110% legit.

[jdhbraves]

Re: Thoughts on COA's/LOA's vs Photomatches....

People are more concerned about if an item has a coa or a hologram than the actual item. I concede that the need for holograms and coa's are ingrained in the community but the item in question should stand on its on, regardless of holograms or coa. Further, an item doesnt need a coa to be authentic. Many of the nicest jerseys i have seen didnt have a coa.