Musial Vault Marked Bat

**JimCaravello** · 11-16-2006, 11:49 AM

Re: Musial Vault Marked Bat

Hi Jeff - Mike and I are reviewing this bat and the records and will be back in touch shortly.....looks like a great Musial!! Jim

**rjdgonebats** · 12-11-2006, 07:23 PM

Re: Musial Vault Marked Bat

Jim ,I havnt seen a reply to this question.This bat was once owned by Mike Montbriand and he wrote about it in his column of Jan 25th 1991.Do you have any input regarding it.

**JimCaravello** · 12-11-2006, 09:07 PM

Re: Musial Vault Marked Bat

I am sorry that I have not replied sooner to this post. Mike Specht and I have discussed the bat and the records and the bat is a tremendous piece to say the least. I'll let Mike comment when he gets a chance.

The auction description stating the model number stamped into the butt of the barrel indicating that it's a factory vault mark placed on the bat upon its return to the factory is correct. I think the most logical and pragmatic way to look at the records is that the bat was crafted to make the 7-14-53 order and for future orders.

The "Half Empty" side of me says that the bat could have been returned from any M159 ( 34.5' - 30 ounce ) subsequent order during the labeling period ( it was not uncommon for players to send in multiple bats over a period ). Or - as Jeff indicated, another bat was sent in ( maybe another manufactured bat such as an Adirondack ) to be used to make the M159. The M159 was modeled for Stan Musial from "some bat".

The dot next to M159 does not tie to the Ledger Card anywhere, which is another mystery - you would think there would be a corresponding dot on the bottom or top of the page that would indicate what the dot meant next to the actual 7-14-53 order.

I think the dot refers to the "model sent in - use M159" - indicating, ok - this is the bat going forward - make some more of these bats.......

The mystery to me revolves around the dot and the hand written notation......( from a logical perspective ) - the dot signifies to me that the M159 is the bat he will used going forward. The "model sent in" language below the 7-14-53 order makes it hard to figure out if another model was sent in to make the M159. It wasn't as if there was another M159 in the factory used by another player to craft the bat ( from what we know, as the M159 was made for Musial ).

That's the mystery.The M159 first order - was crafted from "some bat"..........

The more and more I look at this record and the progression of events - the more I feel that there is a possibility that another bat ( whether it was a prototype in the factory or a different manufacturer's bat ) was used to make the M159 model? The bat in question is either the bat that made the 7-14-53 order or it was a bat from the first order to be used to make future orders.......The auction description indicates this was the bat to make the M159........I personally am on the fence but would lean towards this is the bat that made the first M159 order........I hope this makes sense??

Vault bats are rare finds and I have handled just a few - I'll ask Mike to comment when he gets a chance. Jim

**rjdgonebats** · 12-12-2006, 01:16 PM

Re: Musial Vault Marked Bat

Jim, Thanks for the reply and info. I do appreciate your taking the time to do so.I am the new owner of the bat in question so of course I have a vested interest in finding out as much about it as I can. This is what makes collecting so great,not just simply owning a bat but finding out as much history about it as you can. Thanks again and I look forward to Mike's input also.

**sforaker** · 12-12-2006, 01:31 PM

Re: Musial Vault Marked Bat

Any interest in selling the bat to make some quick $?

**JimCaravello** · 12-12-2006, 03:04 PM

Re: Musial Vault Marked Bat

My Pleasure! And Congrads on winning the bat!! To me - it really doesn't matter if the bat was used to make the first M159 order or that the bat is just a bat from the first M159 order. I really don't see a large value difference. What you should be pleased about is that you won a great Vault Market Musial bat - that he used and cracked - and there's probably not better provenance than that for a bat from this era!!! Congrads!! Jim

**MSpecht** · 12-12-2006, 09:19 PM

Re: Musial Vault Marked Bat

Hi Ray--

I really don't have alot to add to Jim's post, and I suspect that the exact chain of events will not be known. Sometimes you get lucky with a bat when researching records, such as with Musial's record in early 1949 where it states "M117 barrel / S2 handle / Model M135" which tells the date a new model was shipped after combining parts of two existing models.

In the case of this M159 model, however, it is not quite as clear, and some degree of analysis is required. There are three lines of text that are relevant, as follows:

FIRST LINE :
7-14-53 M159 (black dot) 34 1/2 " 30 (oz) A2 or A12 (originally A6)

SECOND LINE:
Model sent in use M158 (circled)

THIRD LINE:
8-20-53 M159 34 1/2' 30 (oz) A12

My opinion is that the writing on lines one and three is different, and that the writing on line two matches the writing on line one, which would then refer to the common scenario that Musial sent in a bat that was to be the pattern for the M159 model (the 159th model in the M sequence.) bat. That bat could have been from another manufacturer (although the commonly seen notation seen in the records would have been something like 'Adirondack model sent in', but just 'model sent in' is also common) or could have been a from H & B, although by 1953 any bat could have just been referred to by the original assigned model number and the desired modification, such as "M140 w/ thinner handle" or something similar (see M135 above).

Regarding the initial order on line one, the original notation was A6, meaning produce 6 bats made of ash, however the 6 is written over (straight vertical line through it) and a 2 is written to the right. The order is therefor either an A12 or an A2, depending on how you read it. The most common scenario was that 2 bats of a new model were produced and sent to the player to use and approve before additional bats of that model were manufactured. While the crossed out 6 does appear to make the order for 12 bats, the typical event would be for a production run of 2, and that the vertical line through the six is likely just a crossed out 6.

So, one possible scenario is that Musial sent in a bat, possibly/likely from another manufacturer, for H & B to replicate (Line 2) . Two were produced with the model number M159 assigned, and shipped to Musial on 7/14/53 for his use and approval (Line 1). He then used, and returned, one to H & B with his approval. At that point, the M159 was additionally stamped into the barrel end and the bat was vaulted and used as a pattern bat for future orders of M159. On 8/20/53 (Line 3) an order of 12 bats, using this bat as the pattern bat, was shipped to Musial.

It would be interesting to see Mike Montbriand's comments on the bat written in 1991, as he may have had record info at that time via Rex Bradley, but likely did not. I thought I had a complete run of Gone Bats from 4/20/90 through 12/30/94, but sure enough, I could not find the Jan 25, 1991 column. It would be interesting to both Jim and I, as well as all forum members, if you could transcribe the section of the column that deals with this bat, if possible.

Good Luck in future collecting... Musial bats have always been among the most difficult to find in outstanding, game used condition, and yours is particularly nice with impeccable provenance through the vault markings and the match in factory records.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

**rjdgonebats** · 12-13-2006, 01:06 PM

Re: Musial Vault Marked Bat

Mike& Jim,Thanks again for all your help on the bat. I have the Montbriand article from 1991.Mike seemed to think that it was a much earlier bat,from the 1940,s and he based it on the style of font on the genuine and louisville slugger on the barrel.However the labeling underneath the centerbrand is from the 1950-60's era.So I cant put much stock in that theory?? and to the member looking to buy it.I havnt had it long enough to even consider it at this time but thanks for the offer.

**rjdgonebats** · 12-13-2006, 01:42 PM

Re: Musial Vault Marked Bat

Sorry guys,I jumped the gun on my first reply.He is the Montbriand article as to the M159 Vault marked bat. Please remember ,Montbriand refers to photo's which of course are not present. Here goes----

The next three photo's 103,104 and 105 show,what I believe,is a unique Stan Musial bat,Phot 103 has the typical MUSIAL MODEL with one variation. It has a dash between the words,MUSIAL and MODEL.

In addition photo 103 has an earlier version of the GENUINE and LOUISVILLE SLUGGER lettering than the other two Musial model bats shown in this article. The letters G and U are more squared off than the rounded G and U shown on the other two bats. There is also a slight difference in the other letters also.

What this means is that the Musial-Model in photo 103 is an older bat from the early to mid-1940's. The lettering on Genuine and Louisville Slugger is consistant with other bats in my collection,that I know are from the 1940's. This Musial bat is from 1941-1944, prior to when H&B placed regular model numbers on the knob end of its professional bats.

The unique feature about this particular Musial bat is that there is an M159 stamped into both the knob and barrel ends. Further the M159 on this bat is clearly different from the normal M159 model number shown in photo 100.

The numbers in the M159 in photo 104 are thicker and shaped differently than the number 159 in photo 100. The other difference of course is that the M159 is also stamped into the barrel end,in contrast to the typical instance of the model number being stamped into the knob end.

What all of these differences add up to, in my opinion, is that the Musial Model M159 shown in photo's 103-105 & 105 are shots of the game used Stan Musial bat which was used as a "pattern bat" from which H&B made other Musial Model M159 bats.The M159 on both ends,as indicated in my May4th1990 article, are lathe or turn numbers for H&B's internal usage.

This Musial "pattern bat" is a historical piece from the career of one of baseballs greatest players. I think it is more significant from an histirical perspective than a Musial signature model bat,if only because there is only one M159 pattern bat with lathe or turn numbers.

Montbriand goes on to describe the knob end which had pieces missing around the edges(Since professionally repaired).He finishes with "THE UNPERFECT BAT CAN BE THE DISGUISED PERFECT COLLECTIBLE.

Mike--I hope this helps but the fact is that underneath the oval is the "REG US PATENT OFFICE" which I believe would clearly make it a later model??? or maybe not what do you think ??? I also like your theory that it was one of two sent for Musial to try and when returned by him to H&B ,it was then vault maked as the prototype for all future M159 models.

**Birdbats** · 12-13-2006, 02:41 PM

Re: Musial Vault Marked Bat

Now I'm really confused! I wish the photos were available to go with that article. Anyway, just a couple thoughts...

Clearly, he was describing a bat made post-1950 and placing it in the 1940s. Should we assume this article was written before it was determined that 1950 was the year that "Trade Mark Reg" was changed to "Reg. U. S. Pat. Off."?

If the stamping in the barrel end is the key to identifying the Mastro bat as a vault bat, why didn't Mastro include a photo of that? Instead, they just showed the knob. Odd.

Finally, the knob repair is mentioned. It caused me to go back and look at the photos closer. I now can see that about 25% of the knob apparently was missing at one point (not mentioned in the description), from about 8 o'clock to noon (looking at the knob is if it was a clock). It's also seems as if the M159 was stamped into the knob before it was broken (part of the M is missing).

So, still I wonder: Why would Musial need to send back a bat to be used as a pattern if it already had been assigned a model number before it was used? When would the barrel end have been stamped -- after it was returned? And why bother if the specs for the M159 are already documented? I find this whole process confusing, and the unusual entries in Stan's factory records don't help to make it clearer.

Thanks to Jim and Mike for their thoughts regarding vault bats and this Musial bat in particular. I appreciate your contributions to this forum!

Musial Vault Marked Bat

Musial Vault Marked Bat

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