Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

[clinton2828]

I called grey flannel this past week and spoke to a gentleman named TJ who I posed several questions to about football items I had interest in. Whenever I asked him to expand in detail the use on a jersey I had interest in he simply stated that if you are looking for team repairs or hits marks it would say it in the description , if not the jerseys would have “light use”. When I moved to ask about the source or consigner I got the same old “impeccable source”, “someone who consigned before”, punch line.


I am tired of football jersey in particular passing auction house inspection with “light use”. I can’t see how any rational person would pass a running backs jersey like GFC did with the Tomlinson and LJ jersey with “light use”. The broad statements and claims auction houses like GFC use I think are unprofessional and show a lack of respect for the buyer and rather a stand alone interest in there profit levels alone. It also show a lack to the attention to detail in informing there customers. It seems the less they know the better with that type of approach to accepting items with light or really no use and then stating in a COA “ jersey shows game use with no altercation of any kind”.

Any other thoughts on the lack of information it seems GFC is offering there customers and there unwillingness it seems to only accept jerseys especially football jerseys with such light to no use from what I can see in the pictures.

[mvandor]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

I agree. I've been here just long enough to develop insight on which auction houses make a living off volume sales of fraudulent items and which ones only have a small number slipping through. I'm sure others if we made a list would have a similar list to mine. Unfortunately, thems that runs this place would never allow posting of such a list and thems with money made illicitly would use some of it to sue everyone involved.

I'm personally crossing my fingers that the FBI finds time from chasing terrorists to enforce some of our other laws, and that they start bringing down this industry's greatest crooks.

[clinton2828]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

why cant we just start a thread that lists football jerseys especially players who play positions who would never just have "light" to "no" use on them. not to say they are not real but to get an idea of how many football jerseys gfc is offering with just light use and maybe even asking them why they feel so comfortable listing soooo many of there football items with just light use and why when you watch a game on tv and look at pics on gettyimages almost every players jersey shows definite use on it?

[RKGIBSON]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

Clinton,

I think there is a couple of things that we forum members can do.

I started a thread to show NFL jerseys. Only 3 members posted pictures. This is exactly why I started it so member can get a idea of what real game use and modifications look like. No participation translates to me that there is no interest here. I communicate privately with several members, on a regular basis, about items and trade info. I think the reason is, this is such a hot topic and it is easier to not use the forum due to the rules. I do agree that some rules must exist. Honest debate on any item is a good thing for everyone, including auction houses.

Next, participate in the jersey data base. I put about 20 good documented items in.I could put on 50 more. Why should I if no one else cares. I put a couple on lately due to the fact I saw a couple of bogus pieces in auctions. I venture to say that less than 10 members submitted football items.

Football collectors seem to just stand on the side and wait for everyone else to do something. The baseball collector on this forum do a good job of posting pictures and info. It is up to us as collectors to educate each other. From my point of view, the more info out there the better. We may educate the dishonest but in reality it makes it harder to pass of a frudulent piece. When no one buys the crap anymore it may stop.

Roger

[lund6771]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

punter, kicker, & the holder for the kicker get my vote for no wear

even QB jerseys should show wear...I have a Rice niners shirt that was worn in 3 games and it has 14 repairs....lineman have their hands all over each other all game...

I don't buy any of this light use stuff and it is easy to tell fake wear if you've seen enough real jerseys

[clinton2828]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

all very good points all around. and the proof is in the final price realized on these items. if you look at almost every single jesey in nfl auction you can see how much the price they get FAR exceeds the prices of similar jerseys in auction house with any use on it. if you look at the final prices of gfc's last auction on the close prices of many football jerseys i think it shows a real lack of confidence on the buyers end.

[RKGIBSON]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

Clinton,

Your right. The bottom line is, collectors want real stuff and it is worth it to pay more for the satisfaction. You can buy with confidence from the NFL.

This can also be done through auction houses. They need to provide enough info for collectors to be comfortable and understand exactly what they are buying. I think right now, AMI does the best job there by posting pictures of paperwork, repairs and gives a better description.

I speak to Rich at Grey Flannel during most every auction and have done business with him for years. I have always found him to be honest with me. If I need it, he will FedX the item to me, at my cost, for examination. This I'm sure has come from the long time relationship and trust.

He has several items, in this auction, that I am very interested in, and will try to buy. He understands what I want as a collector and actually tells me I would not be happy with the use, or we do not know the history so this item is probably not for you. I think there are guys who like nice jerseys and do not care. I like well used and documented jerseys. He understands that up front. I have found the best policy with any auction house, or person, when buying game used is to ask enough question to be comfortable. God knows, I have learned the hard way.

Roger

[scottanservitz]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

I think Roger is totally correct about collectors shying from participating about a lot of the football items coming up for auction. I collect only baseball bats and football jerseys. If I need info on a bat I have my BATS book I bought at this years National to reference. I can also ask Jim, Mike or some of the other knowledgable collectors out there for help. I usually get a response rather quickly. Now when I need info about a jersey I can check the tagging on Jim Yackel's site. After that I really don't know where to go. I have asked Roger and he has helped me make an educated decision on one occassion. After Roger, I don't know where to go. I have very few pieces to reference. I am very picky where and who I would buy from. There are only a few places a collector can go to get good pieces. There are way too many questionable items out there. Documentation is very important. But these are also only available from the NFL or buying from teams directly. These jerseys sell for a ton of money for a reason. When I look at a game used NFL jersey and it looks almost new, the Red Flags fly to me. I played football from pee wee to college. It is a violent sport. Equipment gets hammered. When you find items that look like they have been through a dog fight, this is a good sign to start with. But it goes so much further than that. We need to help with sharing info from people that are trustworthy and those that are suspicious. This is a very expensive hobby. I don't want to get taken! To me in this hobby there is nothing more rewarding than holding a piece of history that I am comfortable with in knowing it is authentic. Roger's collection is something I am really impressed with. Not only with what he has, but also the time and effort he takes in choosing what he buys. I try to follow his path, albeit at a much slower pace. When we have knowledge in this area we need to help out as much as we can. Just my two cents.
Scott

[G1X]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

It's been said before in this Forum, but it bears repeating. Break the cycle of dependency. Take the time to put together a reference library of photos, videos, books, programs, yearbooks, magazines, cards, etc., etc., etc. of the items you collect. There is much, much more to research than looking at Getty Images. For the price of a couple of jerseys and some serious time spent searching, you should be able to build a decent library within a few years. It will pay off handsomely and help make you an expert at what you collect!

Find others in this hobby who collect the same or similar items and network with them. Contacts will mushroom quickly. Stay in touch with these contacts as nuggets of knowledge will be picked up in almost every conversation. There are a lot of folks out there who are more than eager to share their knowledge with you on the items they collect. Many of these folks, for a variety of reasons, are more willing to communicate privately than share information in public arenas such as this Forum. Start networking now to find these folks.

Visit a dealer if you ever have the chance, especially after they have made a bulk buy. Some of the most educational experiences for me have been making a few bulk buys from teams over the years, and visiting other dealers such as the late-Dick Dobbins and Hartel Sports to observe their inventory first-hand. Although only a few dealers now attend shows, it is still worth the money to make a trip to The National to observe Pro-Am Sports (Wayne Otto) extensive inventory and Hartel Sports. Holding a jersey in hand and studying it in person is much more educational than simply looking at a few photos of a jersey on your favorite dealer's website.

Whenever someone asks me what is the most valuable item in my collection, I tell them that it is my reference library and collecting buddies within the hobby. Maybe a lot of collectors just don't have the time for all of this, but unless you do, it will be difficult to ever feel truly confident in purchasing the items that you collect.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[lund6771]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

I agree 110% with what Mark stated...there is a tremendous amount of knowledge to learn out there...pre-internet it was a learning a bit here and there from the "experts...but with technology today, it has taken a lot of the science out of it...except for seeing the actual tagging that is hidden underneath

Getty is just the tip of the iceberg...it gives a few random pics here and there, but with due diligence, you can photo/video match anything you want to out there...I'm spaeaking mostly about footbal because with football it really is easy...that is why it so so frustrating for me to see the auction houses continously sell bad stuff...basketball has to be the hardest

why pay an aunthenticator fpr their opinion when they don't care and don't do a good job?...I'm not exqaggerating that within minutes & creativity a collector can be going in the right direction to do ther own authentication

[BarryMeisel]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

Hi everybody,

I totally agree with Mark's comment about examining bulk buys. We have bought entire team sets from the Eagles and Giants on a number of occasions ... and can attest to what NFL game-worn jerseys are supposed to look like.

And light use is not the way I'd describe them. Even when jerseys are worn for one game, they show obvious battle scars. We marketed the Eagles' one-game set of Lincoln Financial Field inaugural patch jerseys, and got them days after the game. They didn't look like many of these "light use" jerseys to which many of you have referenced.

We've purchased two sets of the Eagles' alternate black jerseys, some worn in one game, some worn in two games ... again, the use is evident and easily photo-matchable.

Collectors who have visted our warehouse have seconded Mark's point about learning plenty from seeing a team set with perfect provenance.

Light use? Perhaps for special teamers, backup quarterbacks, kickers and punters. I think those who are staying away from items like stars jerseys with "light use" and vague provenance are making smart decisions.

I will add that the easiest photo-matches we at MeiGray have found are photo-matches for football jerseys coming directly from the teams. With teams playing only 16 NFL regular-season games, even QBs who wear a new jersey every game can be easily photo-matched ... when the jersey is legit.

Regards,
Barry Meisel, MGG

[lund6771]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

Hi Barry...with getting a bulk purchase it must be obvious seeing real wear on many jerseys vs one or 2...thats an eduaction in itself right there

I Also feel that QB's shirts will show wear even with only one game's use...Call it a coincedence, but I have a Montana, Favre, and Marino that all have blood stains on them that were perfectly photo/video matched

in todays colecting world, the players know that their jerseys are worth a lot of cash so they wear a new jersey alomst every game if it's up to them...in previous decades there were only a few issued each year..A running backs' jersey should be almost destroyed...but then again you need to tune your eye in on fake wear, and that comes with experience

I would never buy any fotball jersey with light wear, which I believe means no wear

[BarryMeisel]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

Hi Lund 6771,

You and I must have posted simultaneously, and I agree with almost everything you write.

I will disagree with you on one point ... now that we are working with the NBA, we are finding photo matching basketball jerseys very simple. Because all the names, logos and numbers are hand-cut, it is very easy to see slam-dunk photo matches with the right reference material and photo-matching equipment.

We're watching the NBA jerseys very closely as we start working with the league ... and we are finding that there are an incredible number of bad jerseys (i.e. pro-cuts), being marketed by a variety of sources: Many authenticated without substantial evidence of game use.

Now if some of you are thinking, "Oh, MeiGray thinks everything on the market is bad because they're working with the NBA now," you should know that now that we are working with the NBA, we have authenticated and registered into our database jerseys from the secondary market that have easily photo-matched.

We know there are some good jerseys in the marketplace from anonymous sources. But not many ... Please be very, very careful, because there are an alarming number of pro-cut jerseys passing as "lightly used" gamers by sources who do not thoroughly research and investigate these gamers.

I'd like to make one more point to back my views: Values over the last five years have shown NHL hockey jerseys to be the most valuable.

Sidney Crosby, $15,000-$20,000
Alexander Ovechkin, $7,500
Mark Messier, $7,500-$12,500
Martin Brodeur, $7,500
Steve Yzerman, $5,000-$7,500
Mike Modano, Jarome Iginla, Jaromir Jagr, $3,000-$4,500

And on and on and on ...

Why? Because the hockey collecting community watches its hobby very closely. It authenticates its jerseys more thoroughly than the baseball, basketball and football hobby does. And real game-worn jerseys in hockey don't have to compete with the volume of questionable jerseys that appear in the other sports. We believe that's the main reason these jerseys have held the values they command.

When the NHL partnered with MeiGray in 2002 to security tag the jerseys of 22 program teams, it ensured that "authentics" couldn't be passed off as gamers. And for those of you unaware, MeiGray each year publishes a Population Report (available on our website for any collector to access free of charge) that tells you exactly how many jerseys were worn by each player, each season, and what serial number exists in each jersey.

And what a coincidence, once we started doing this the number of NHL game-worn jerseys offered from secondary sources (ebay, auctions) without explicitly detailed provenance decreased to virtually zero.

We hope five years from now, we're saying the same thing about NBA jerseys.

Regards,

Barry

[lund6771]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

Barry...

u guys are a class act all the way...I sure hope that your prediction five years from now holds true...truely cleaning up the hobby in a postive way

I do remember hearing once say how closely you can zoom in on a picture in basketball...

Keep up the great work!!!!

Pete

[clinton2828]

Re: Current GFC Auction items with "light use"

barry,
apperciate the feedback and to dismiss the myth of "light use".

barry, from your dealings with the pro sports leagues and teams do they see the mass amounts of fake game worn items as an issue and are leagues and teams taking steps to deal with them in ANY way? apperciate the participation and feedback..