1973-74 Rams James Harris?

[slats7]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

ah, sorry. some of those old pix didn't surface on the browser I was using.

[G1X]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

they only exist in football card poses, not actual games

Slats,

Thanks for the input. These blue jerseys with the number trim were actually worn in preseason game action. Check out Getty Images from 1973 as there are several nice color photos from a Rams preseason game in '73.

The discussion here revolves around white Rams jerseys from that era (see photos in the first photo of this thread).

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

[G1X]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

Nick,

With all due respect and not trying to be a complete pompous jerk, this is one of the things that annoys me about the game-used hobby. There is no photo or video evidence of the Rams ever wearing this style, there have been a few well-seasoned hobbyists who have weighed in on the jersey, there is not much that looks "right" about this jersey (wrong number style, name-on-back incorrect, length of sleeves are too long, lack of tail tags, etc.), yet we are still having this discussion 7 years later with the possibility of this jersey being put back on the market. This is how questionable stuff ends up becoming something that it is not. Fiction becomes fact, and fact becomes fiction. "Maybe it is", "I hope it is", "the LOA says that it is", "there aren't that many photos from back then so who knows", etc., etc., etc. Next thing we know, it is in an auction and some assume that it must be good, especially those who do not have the time and/or inclination to do their homework (research).

I'll be a bit more blunt. I collect stuff from this era, been doing it for a long time (41 years), and feel very comfortable with knowing what was worn during that time. I have a large photo reference library on hand from that era to assist with research. Having said all of that, I would not even contemplate selling this jersey if it were mine, much less be interested in buying it in the first place.

Not to say that the following method is either right or wrong, but I need the following to convince me that a "one-off" (exception-to-the-rule) jersey is possibly team issued and/or game worn:
1. Find a photo of the particular player in question wearing the "one-off" jersey. The best example I've had was when a Broncos collector approached me years ago about the possibility of John Elway wearing a Champion jersey in the mid-1980s during an era when the Broncos never wore Champion. It just so happened that I had a nice color photo of Elway wearing the said Champion jersey complete with logo on the sleeve.

2. If no photo available of the particular player, I then would need to find ANY player in a game photo/video/film wearing the particular "one-off" style.

3. If still no evidence, then the jersey sits in my closet until I can come up with definitive proof that the particular oddball style was worn in game action. To claim that it was game worn or even team issued without proof would be disingenuous.

Again, for those jumping in late in this thread, I am talking about "one-off", "exception-to-the-rule", "oddball" jerseys (or however you wish to label these anomalies).

As for the repair on this jersey, I cannot clearly see it in the photos in the opening post. Regardless, a good seamstress can fake a repair by matching the repair style, and it's even better if the actual team's seamstress is willing to "enhance" an otherwise clean jersey! There are a few folks in this hobby who have done the latter (some who have been busted).

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

[slats7]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?







they only exist in football card poses, not actual games

[nickeyv]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

Hello Mark,thank you for your input,

Okay what do you make of the team repair just above the numbers on front,

The Team Repair is in line with a repair done by team equipment staff.

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule in all sports,even if there is no photo evidence and all that,in all sports.

Back then,not all games were televised like today.

Based on Mark's input,can the jersey be termed as team issued and a rare example of a Rams jersey OR

The possibility remains a game worn one game one off worn jersey

[G1X]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

Nick,

Here are my thoughts on the Harris jersey based on information in this thread and extensive research performed by me and others on early 1970s Rams jerseys:

1. No one has yet to come up with photos/video of James Harris wearing this jersey style in game action.

2. No one has yet to come up with photos/video of any Rams player wearing this jersey style in game action (white jerseys with blue numbers trimmed in gold).

3. Harris did not wear #12 until 1974, a year in which the Rams were wearing one-color numbers. Harris continued wearing #12 with the Rams through 1976 before ending up in San Diego in 1977. The Rams continued to have one-color numbers throughout the rest of his tenure in LA.

4. According to the photos in the opening post in this thread, there is no nameplate - the name is directly on the back. I have yet to find any photo evidence of the Rams not using nameplates is this era. As we all know, there are always "exceptions to the rule" with the occasional "one-off" jersey, but I have not found any photo evidence of such at this point. Even the Jack Youngblood jersey in an earlier post has the name on a nameplate.

5. The Gridiron Uniform Data Base does not show the Rams wearing this particular style of white jersey. http://www.gridiron-uniforms.com/GUD/rams.shtml This site does extensive research and is a trusted source. They show that in 1973, the Rams wore two different styles of blue jerseys - one that had trim on the numbers and one without. However, they only wore one style of white jerseys and it did not have trim.

I hope this information is useful and will be helpful to you in drawing your own conclusion about the jersey.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for WFL game-used uniforms.

[nickeyv]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

Hi there,I have the jersey in question,

I got it from the Mile High Card Auction on 2010

Have we got any more information on this jersey,on whether it is indeed a Harris game worn jersey

I am planning to make it available shortly

I noticed it also has a team repair just above the front numbers

Any help would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks alot

Nick

[slats7]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

[sox83cubs84]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

Gentlemen,

I have no comment on the particular James Harris jersey in question, but I would like to shed some light on Rams jerseys from that era.

The Rams first changed to the ram-horn insert style in 1973. The blue jerseys originally had two-toned "sewn-on" numbers that were gold trimmed in white. This can be seen in numerous photos of the era in magazines, Getty Images, TOPPS football cards, etc.




This style seems to be very short-lived as they can be seen wearing the solid gold numbers by 1974.

Logic would dictate that the Rams would have had a white jersey style that correlated with the blue jersey style. In other words, a white jersey with blue sewn-on numbers trimmed in gold. However, I have researched this issue in the past and have never been able to find a photograph that substantiates the Rams wearing a white jersey with blue numbers trimmed in white.

Perhaps they had a set and never wore them. This wouldn't be the first time this happened. In 1968, the Falcons had a black jersey with trim on the sleeve cuffs (no sleeve stripes and no Falcon logo) that can be seen in plenty of TOPPS photos but not in any game action photos. Then there are the infamous 1984 Cleveland Browns white jerseys with orange numbers that were never worn (documented in several articles including USA Today).

Perhaps the Rams had a set and wore them, but the gold trim simply does not show up in photographs. Or, maybe they never had a set and only salesmen samples exist. Who knows without concrete photo evidence. Perhaps there are Rams collectors out there or someone with knowledge of the Rams equipment staff who can provide facts, photos, or details.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Charlie Cowan's 1974 Topps FB card (likely a 1973 photo):





Dave Miedema

[slats7]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

1973 pre-season:







1973 playoffs:





Looks like "trim" was only applied to the white jersey numbers.

[G1X]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

Jim,

After we swapped emails the other night, I did a bit of research on the tagging. The earliest I could find a bold "Medalist" designation on Sand-Knit tagging (similar to the photo you provided) was in the mid-1970s. I have a number of NFL and WFL jerseys dating up to 1974 (all of the WFL jerseys are from 1974) and they have the traditional Sand-Knit double tag as seen in the attached photos.

Hope this helps. Maybe someone else who is either a Rams collector or Sand-Knit tagging expert can chime in on this discussion.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for World Football League jerseys, Atlanta Falcons jerseys, AFL/NFL durene jerseys, and Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game-used items.

[genius]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

Here's a 1973 preseason photo, it's hard to tell if there's any gold trim on the numbers but it does look that way on one of the "4"s. The numeral font looks consistent, and perhaps the name fonts as well though they are barely visible. No clue on the tag though.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

A similar jersey just sold on eBay. Same style but different Sand-Knit tag. Any ideas?

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

[aeneas01]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

beautiful jersey rkg:

i'll never forget the first time i saw "my" rams in those jerseys - i was a young pup at the time and had to wait until the second to last week of the season for the rams to finally be televised - it was a mnf game against the giants. prior to that mnf game the only shots i saw of the new unis were grainy, poor quality b&w photos that were few and far between. and, frankly, the change didn't seem that drastic in the b&w photos.

man was i in for a surprise when my boys trotted out onto the field during that mnf game! i was in total shock, floored and i couldn't believe my eyes! i hated the new unis, i thought the rams looked like clowns! i especially thought that the horns on the sleeves were absurd - horns on the helmet, beautiful and an nfl classic, but the sleeves? wt... and meredith didn't help matters that night either - he was having a ball with the new unis, cracking jokes about them throughout the game. but the rams were having a great season and lit up the giants that night so the pill was a bit easier to swallow. after the arse whoopin' meredith quipped "well i guess if ya look good, ya play good - so the rams must think they look pretty darn good!". it was pretty funny.

anyway, i never warmed up to the those unis - i guess it's because the blue & whites were such classics even though the rams only wore them for a short time. when the rams announced the change i thought they were going to go back to the old blue & gold which were beauties as well. but, oddly, whenever i know see jerseys such as yours at auction, jerseys from that era, they look pretty darn good!

mark -

i feel for you jersey collectors - i can't imagine trying to keep up with all of the intricacies that separate authentics from fakes or the details that define/support eras - imo helmets are a breeze compared to jerseys!

[G1X]

Re: 1973-74 Rams James Harris?

aeneas01,

Thanks for the insight. Your McCutcheon photo and Roger's photo of his Hadl jersey clearly show that the trim was only on the front and back numbers, and not on the sleeve numbers as I had previously believed.

You make a good point about the reflection of the raised edges of the solid gold numbers creating a "trim-like" effect in certain photos. I was always fooled by this perception when observing certain photos such as the one you posted of #32 and others that we referenced. The stitching probably lends to the "trim-like" effect as well, especially if the thread is a lighter shade of gold.

Thanks for your postings to set me straight on this issue, and thanks to Roger for posting the Hadl photos which was also helpful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net