American Memorabilia: Ethics

[mvandor]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with this as long as everything is on the up and up...if I consigned my collection to an auction, and everything was going pretty low, I'd feel that I should have the right to buy back my own stuff as long as I paid the fees both ways...if we, auction house and I, conspired to drive up prices and then sell to the second bidder, that's a whoel different story

But if you set a minimum starting bid or set a reserve, such shenanigans wouldn't be necessary would they? It's not like auctions are a new concept.

[lund6771]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

But if you set a minimum starting bid or set a reserve, such shenanigans wouldn't be necessary would they? It's not like auctions are a new concept.

I agree 100%...

[otismalibu]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

But if you set a minimum starting bid or set a reserve, such shenanigans wouldn't be necessary would they? It's not like auctions are a new concept.

Agreed. But I've heard many an eBayer state that high opening bids and reserve auctions turn off bidders. That's why Fraudway Rick had his own special reserve system.

I think bidders will be more aggressive thinking they're battling a fellow collector than they would if they were simply bidding against a reserve or worse yet, the owner of the item.

[Eric]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

Noticed this on the AMI web site, and wondered if the recent FBI investigation of shill bidding at auction houses prompted the following disclosure of a practice AMI has always done?

The auction house reserves the right to place a bid on any lot on behalf of the seller. Auction house will not specifically identify bids placed on behalf of the seller.

The seller, and AMI can shill bid the price up and both make more money, while legitimate bidders get ripped off. This is morally, and ethically wrong.

This is also on top of the 20 percent fee to spend your money with them, if you choose.

Where is this on the ami website?

[sammy]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

Click on any category, and you will see it.

[helmets]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

I can see it later tonight...Victor's consignor buddies (both of them) will call in and decide where to sell their piece at...."let's see if we can get this guy to go up another bid Victor"...."No problem, if they don't bid it again we'll get them on the max bid or call them in a few days and tell them that the high bidder backed out if you want"

That is exactly what happened to me. I bid $800 something on a helmet. It immediately stated that I was outbid. I bid 1200 something...outbid...1500 something...outbid...1800 something...outbid, finally I tried 22 or 2300 something, and was outbid again. I went to bed, and as I lay there, I felt pretty good that I did not win the helmet, as I got tied up in the moment and should have quit at about the 1200 or the 1500. However, I was outbid on some others that I had bid on, and I was bound and determined to win one. I slept great that night, knowing that I did not overpay for something that I was not 100% sure was the "Real Stuff" anyways. The next morning I woke up, checked email, and I get a congrats email that I was the winner of the helmet at the 2200 or $2300. I look at my inbox, and there about 5 emails up is the "outbid" notice that I received 6 hours earlier. I forwarded both of the emails to the auction house along with a note telling them that I was outbid and I did not want the item. I then called them later that day and was told...you guessed it...the high bidder was not "verified" and should not have bid on the helmet. That in turn made me the high bidder and I was obligated to buy the helmet. "Ahh, I don't think so..." was my reply. I went on to ask how I was to know that the high "unverified" bidder was not the same one that outbid me at my 800 bid? She said to hang on a minute and she would check. She came back on the line and said - nope, they are not the same bidder, so the helmet was mine. I did not buy the helmet from them, and have not bought since. I now question every time that I was outbid in the past and ended up winning an item from them.

[MGHProductions]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

My story with AMI is just like Helmets. I was bidding on a bat that had two bids and was up to 605. I took the next bid and was outibid, bid again, outbid and so on. I went up to 1400 or so and was outbid. I check the lot at 3 am and the price had not gone up and I was still outibid. I check my email in the morning and there is a congrats you're the high bidder (winner) at 1400 (whatever my last bid was). I emailed them a few times and did not get a response to what happened, so I finally called them. I told the person the situation, they showed I was outbid in their system and said I did not have to pay, then put me on hold, came back and asked me how much I wanted to pay for the item. I offered to split the difference, from my first bid to my last bid... she said she would get back to me and never did.

[trsent]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

My story with AMI is just like Helmets. I was bidding on a bat that had two bids and was up to 605. I took the next bid and was outibid, bid again, outbid and so on. I went up to 1400 or so and was outbid. I check the lot at 3 am and the price had not gone up and I was still outibid. I check my email in the morning and there is a congrats you're the high bidder (winner) at 1400 (whatever my last bid was). I emailed them a few times and did not get a response to what happened, so I finally called them. I told the person the situation, they showed I was outbid in their system and said I did not have to pay, then put me on hold, came back and asked me how much I wanted to pay for the item. I offered to split the difference, from my first bid to my last bid... she said she would get back to me and never did.

That is exactly what happened to me. I bid $800 something on a helmet. It immediately stated that I was outbid. I bid 1200 something...outbid...1500 something...outbid...1800 something...outbid, finally I tried 22 or 2300 something, and was outbid again. I went to bed, and as I lay there, I felt pretty good that I did not win the helmet, as I got tied up in the moment and should have quit at about the 1200 or the 1500. However, I was outbid on some others that I had bid on, and I was bound and determined to win one. I slept great that night, knowing that I did not overpay for something that I was not 100% sure was the "Real Stuff" anyways. The next morning I woke up, checked email, and I get a congrats email that I was the winner of the helmet at the 2200 or $2300. I look at my inbox, and there about 5 emails up is the "outbid" notice that I received 6 hours earlier. I forwarded both of the emails to the auction house along with a note telling them that I was outbid and I did not want the item. I then called them later that day and was told...you guessed it...the high bidder was not "verified" and should not have bid on the helmet. That in turn made me the high bidder and I was obligated to buy the helmet. "Ahh, I don't think so..." was my reply. I went on to ask how I was to know that the high "unverified" bidder was not the same one that outbid me at my 800 bid? She said to hang on a minute and she would check. She came back on the line and said - nope, they are not the same bidder, so the helmet was mine. I did not buy the helmet from them, and have not bought since. I now question every time that I was outbid in the past and ended up winning an item from them.

These stories are both along the same lines, and I had similar happen on a bat years ago with them. I understand not all high bidders are going to pay, but time and time again, the very next morning?

The problem is we all know the auction houses all own many of the items in the auction, not everything is consignment so they may put in hidden reserves then decide to sell before going to bed for the night to the last high bidder who went to sleep thinking they were outbid.

The more I think about this new clause it makes me think that auction houses should disclose which items they own and which are consignments so there is no confusion with what is being bid up by a consignor or the auction house itself.

[Danny899]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

These stories are both along the same lines, and I had similar happen on a bat years ago with them. I understand not all high bidders are going to pay, but time and time again, the very next morning?

The problem is we all know the auction houses all own many of the items in the auction, not everything is consignment so they may put in hidden reserves then decide to sell before going to bed for the night to the last high bidder who went to sleep thinking they were outbid.

The more I think about this new clause it makes me think that auction houses should disclose which items they own and which are consignments so there is no confusion with what is being bid up by a consignor or the auction house itself.

Joel,
I'm still trying to digest this policy as it is new to me as well. If this isn't illegal, certainly it is morally wrong, wouldn't you say? I always thought I was bidding against other bidders, not the house itself! What gives them the right to decide that the price isn't high enough that they just go in and pump it up? Do they actually plan on winning it for themselves by outbidding you? And if you don't go back in and top THEIR bid, they contact you in the morning and say you're the high bidder because of an "unverified" bidder and are expected to purchase it? I don't get involved with the auction houses much anymore because of the 20% fee, shipping overcharges and mostly poor communication and unfriendly customer service. But this "self bidding right" and their attempt to justify it sickens me and I will cease to engage in any future auctions. I enjoy your open minded and objective posts, so please tell me if I'm reading this or interpereting it incorrectly. Thanks, Dan

[David]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

Some people may phone in bids, in part as they want to discuss an issue or the lot with a company rep, and the auction house would then enter in their bid. This would be an instance where the auction house typing in someone else's bid would be reasonable and okayed.

[trsent]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

Joel,
I'm still trying to digest this policy as it is new to me as well. If this isn't illegal, certainly it is morally wrong, wouldn't you say? I always thought I was bidding against other bidders, not the house itself! What gives them the right to decide that the price isn't high enough that they just go in and pump it up? Do they actually plan on winning it for themselves by outbidding you? And if you don't go back in and top THEIR bid, they contact you in the morning and say you're the high bidder because of an "unverified" bidder and are expected to purchase it? I don't get involved with the auction houses much anymore because of the 20% fee, shipping overcharges and mostly poor communication and unfriendly customer service. But this "self bidding right" and their attempt to justify it sickens me and I will cease to engage in any future auctions. I enjoy your open minded and objective posts, so please tell me if I'm reading this or interpereting it incorrectly. Thanks, Dan

Dan, there are so many different ways that this could happen.

I agree with you - 15-20% buyers premiums and a "no return" policy? Many auction houses treat customers like the customers owe the auction houses for letting them bid in their auctions, etc. etc.

I believe we are over evaluating this new AMI posted policy. I do not think they are bidding on their own items, but this policy means they could. Since they know what a high bid is, they can bid up any items so why would anyone place a high bid other than the next bid on an item knowing the auction house has the right to bid on it themselves?

The eBay system works great, but items such as the Sid Luckman jersey do not get a chance to sell on eBay. I am sure the owner of the jersey would be pleased with his $35,000ish from the auction, but at the end of the day, they may have got more on eBay with all the excitement the jersey brought.

Finally - I am going to assume (bad word, but it fits) this policy is for when an item is consigned with a reserve, but they start the bidding below this reserve. This would make sense, but it shouldn't be necessary. Just like eBay - Post "Reserve Not Met" and there are no concerns, right?

This posted policy is troublesome to many, and it may scare away bids.

[Danny899]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

This posted policy is troublesome to many, and it may scare away bids.

Joel,
It certainly scares me away from bidding. I would never enter a ceiling bid again, knowing it will be pushed up to just that. I'm sure you wouldn't get a friendly explanation if you called them either. Either put a reserve like Ebay or start the bidding near what you want to get for it. Unless I see something that I "just have to get" I'll stay away from the large auction houses for the reasons I documented in the earlier post. Ebay still is a valued source for collecting. Also, I purchased a jersey from you a while back and I didn't need to add 20%, overpay for shipping and wait a month to get it!! That's the way to do it. Thanks again, Dan

[cohibasmoker]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

The way I have always looked at auctions is, I have a price in mind and I bid accordingly. If my bid is exceeded, oh well there's always some other auction house having an auction, the internet or even eBay.

I remember back in the day going to card shows and seeing suspension helmets and Duke Thorp footballs and saying to myself - WOW. Now with eBay, the market has opened up and although the above items are still hard to get, in nice condition, they are much more accessible than they once were.

Jim

[jppopma]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

These hidden reserves and cancelled bids are what scare me the most in these auctions. I do not have unlimited funds and have to pick and choose what items I want to bid on (I'm sure most are in the same boat).

If say I have $3,000 to blow on an auction, I would at least like to place that bid on something I have a chance with and not let it sit on an auciton with a hidden $4,000 reserve.

As with Helmets example..once I get outbid, I will move on to the next item that I am interested in. We have to pick and choose and I can't see how they can go back and pull up any past bid. I understand that a bid is a "contract", but once outbid that contract has in a sense been voided at that moment.

[Oil Can Dan]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

I had an experience similar to the two mentioned above with a major auction house, and it left such a bad taste in my mouth that I haven't bought from any major auction house since. It's a shame, because I am fortunate enough to drop five figures on items I'm interested in but I will not until there's more transparency, because as it stands, the major auction houses smell very bad.

Looking forward to seeing the end result of this latest FBI investigation.