NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

[jboosted92]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Let me make the CONFLICT OF INTEpoint totally clear so there is no confusion:

MEARS KNOWS THE CONCEPT IS A REST SO THEY FULLY DISCLOSE SUCH IN ADVANCE SO ANYONE WHO IS LOOKING AT AN ITEM MEARS OWNS AND AUTHENTICATED IS TOLD SUCH IN ADVANCE SO THEY CAN MAKE THEIR OWN DETERMINATION.

MEARS KNOWS THIS IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST - NO GAMES - THEY DISCLOSE SUCH.

Save your breath, Joel.....your arguing with an entity that adds no value to the hobby other than grandstanding. A10, A9, A4...it doesnt matter, if item meets the grading criteria in the Policy, WHICH was created PRIOR to said item. Dave could buy 100 GU jerseys and MEARS could grade them A10...it doesnt matter...cause ...The rules were made before the game. "IF" said item is found to be mistaken by the "actual" buyer, then said buyer can discuss with MEARS and there buyback policies.

MEARS does a great job of responding to everyones thoughts, even if they are exorbitant to the issue. Frankly, I would continue to send links to the policies that are put in place than continue to entertain weightless discussions. However, hats off to them for caring.

[G1X]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Instead of entering into the debate about conflicts of interest, I would like to point out a hidden nugget in this thread that is absolutely invaluable to any football jersey collector who has interests in collecting 20th century football jerseys. This information can be found in post #15 where Joel Alpert quotes Troy Kinunen's post on the MEARS website regarding older football jerseys.

Troy is dead-on in his assessment. I have been very fortunate to have had thousands of game-worn football jerseys go through my hands over the years, and I can attest that my experiences and observations are in total agreement with Mr. Kinunen.

Football jerseys for most of the 20th century were made differently and worn differently than today's jerseys. Modern jerseys are not only designed differently, they are worn very tightly. With this combination, it doesn't take much to damage a modern jersey. Older jerseys were more durable by design, and players tended to wear them more loosely. It took a lot more pulling and tugging, hits, and other similar abuse to create rips and tears.

In my humble opinion, and with all due respect to Troy, labeling the Jim Brown jersey as a tear-away jersey has created a bit of confusion and understandable questioning from some GUU members. Although I have not seen the jersey in person, judging from the photos, it appears to be simply a case where a lighter weight durene was used in manufacturing and not an actual tear-away material. (The above observation is not intended to be interpreted as any type of validation or dismissal of MEARS grading of this jersey.)

For a little background on tear-away jerseys, this style came into prominence around 1970 when college teams such as Texas, Oklahoma, and Alabama started running the wishbone. It didn't take much to destroy a tear-away jersey. Living in Alabama at the time, I was never surprised to see the QB or running backs make several changes during a game. The equipment staff would have extra jerseys tucked in their belts so that they could make quick changes on the sidelines. (The lineman and defensive players normally did not wear tear-aways.)

If the Jim Brown jersey was a true tear-away, Troy's "tugging match" would have turned a very valuable jersey into a couple of strips of cloth!

Troy's very informative and educational observation of older jerseys bears repeating. I beg each football jersey collector out there to read and absorb this golden nugget.

It is often noted that a jersey has to exhibit team repairs to be considered heavily worn. This is not a universal truth and wear can manifest itself in additional visible manners. For example, examine the area of the crotch piece of this jersey. Along the button opening reinforced stitching, you can see areas of fraying. This was caused from the buttoning and unbuttoning of the piece. The game wear is visible when examining the stress and contact marks found on the fabric. This is especially visible when examining the area of the numeral surfaces. The use may be considered light by some when comparing the fabric to a dureene example with visible team repairs, but close examination reveals wear to the overall areas of the fabric of the body shell, crotch piece and numerals.

Over the past 3 years, I have personally handled nearly 300 game used NFL jerseys. I have purchased many of them on Ebay, dealers, and game used forum members. One of the key components I have noticed was the absence of team repairs. Most of these jerseys were of common players. They were purchased with the intentions to obtain fabric samples and color templates for the MEARS archives. After each jersey was archived, many were sold.

By handling such a large random sample, I was able to empirically illustrate that NFL jerseys would have medium to heavy game wear, without team repairs. Some jerseys were found to have team repairs, but I would estimate that less than 10% of the jerseys were found with team repairs. Therefore, with the aid of actual examples, I was able to document that game worn jerseys of common players were found in high percentages (90%) to not have team repairs.

A counter argument is that common players are not superstars, nor running backs, and common players should not have the same amount of game wear as a running back of Brown's calibre. Many of the samples that we examined were of everyday starting lineman, considered common players by collectors standards. These lineman jerseys were worn in every down, yet did not have repairs. It is also interesting to note that on several instances, MEARS issued unable to authenticate on super star jerseys, bearing manufactured or contrived team repairs. It is our expert opinion team repairs do not alone make a jersey real or fake.

Now, I do not mean to offend the many collectors that have NFL jerseys exhibiting team repairs. I know they exist, and have a database file of photographed players with visible team repairs. I just want to illustrate that a jersey does not have to have a team repair in order to be considered authentic or having heavy game wear.

If any interested parties would like to further discuss the team repairs vs. non team repairs debate, I would be willing to extend an invitation this spring to the new MEARS Research and Conference Center. Our color plate copies of the NFL jerseys referenced above are available for any interested parties. We can compare your actual jerseys to our referenced color plate examples.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

[lund6771]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Mark...I'm looking at this outside the box...

There is fraying around the buttons from buttoning and un-buttoning the crotch piece?....that's how this is deduced as being game worn?...please

Was this jersey matched up against a known to be 100% real Jim Brown from this era? Noone knows beacuse the A10 worksheet says nothing....it reads "moderate use", "no repairs"....hmmmmm, so let's give it an A10, because if we give it a grade less than that, it won't fetch as much....what a bunch of BS...

seeing the conflict of interest yet Joel?

what do you think this jersey would have sold for if Mears would have listed it as Real, but unable to be 100% certain if it was worn on the field....like an A5 or so....half at best?

You talk about how Mears is so revolutionary....are all of the fake jerseys that have a grading of A5 revolutionary?....

until Mears decided that they were going to be an auction house, I don't think that you can make a comparison with GFC, Mastro, AMI, etc...Mears WAS an authenticator and the others are auction houses....but now that they are an auction house, they can grade everything an A10 so that they can squeeze every last penny out of the collector with their system

[cohibasmoker]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I'd like to make 2 statements:

First: I think Mark and Troy have it right. I believe it should be a combination of factors and not just whether or not a jersey has wear on it or not when trying to determine authenticity of a jersey. How can someone discount a jersey because it does NOT have a lot of wear? Who can say what the journey of any jersey, vintage or modern, was if they weren't in the locker-room? There could be a multitude of reasons why a jersey doesn't show wear - it could have been stolen, donated to charity, player superstitions, injury, player released or taken by a player or staff member and given away to friends. It could have been removed after one game, two games or a seasons worth of use.

Second: I like MEARS and I think they do a good job. BUT, what's with the different grades of authenticity? A jersey should be either authentic or not authentic. It's like being pregnant - either you are or you are not pregnant. That's it.

But that's just my opinion.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Mark...I'm looking at this outside the box...

There is fraying around the buttons from buttoning and un-buttoning the crotch piece?....that's how this is deduced as being game worn?...please

Was this jersey matched up against a known to be 100% real Jim Brown from this era? Noone knows beacuse the A10 worksheet says nothing....it reads "moderate use", "no repairs"....hmmmmm, so let's give it an A10, because if we give it a grade less than that, it won't fetch as much....what a bunch of BS...

seeing the conflict of interest yet Joel?

what do you think this jersey would have sold for if Mears would have listed it as Real, but unable to be 100% certain if it was worn on the field....like an A5 or so....half at best?

You talk about how Mears is so revolutionary....are all of the fake jerseys that have a grading of A5 revolutionary?....

until Mears decided that they were going to be an auction house, I don't think that you can make a comparison with GFC, Mastro, AMI, etc...Mears WAS an authenticator and the others are auction houses....but now that they are an auction house, they can grade everything an A10 so that they can squeeze every last penny out of the collector with their system

Ok, so you don't like the system - Don't bid in their auctions or buy items with their letters. Next issue...

What "fake jerseys that have grading of A5" are you refering to?

I believe the forum rules require you to give examples of such and not just such a broad statement. Forgive me if I am wrong, but your statement doesn't have any facts to back it up.

[lund6771]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Smoker...

I think with having the various grades of A5-A10 is what part of my issue is here...the difference in auction sales from an A5-A10 is enormous...and when the authenticator puts numerous pieces in an auction, that are all graded a perfect A10, that raises a lot of ethical questions

I think the whole authentication business is a scam....

I agree with all that Mears is trying to set new levels of standards...but when you compare that level in this industry vs other industries in the REAL world, Mears' standards are still in the horse and buggy stage

[lund6771]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Good Morning Joel....

I don' want to wase my entire Saturday putting A5 examples up here....You've seen as many as I've seen over the years....how about Tom Brady's, Kobe Bryant, and Steelers jerseys?...go to E-bay, i'm sure there's a few Lebron James' on there....usually is

The A-5 is the biggest joke of all....if they would have gone with a pass/fail it wouldn't be as a big an issue to me...but the difference in $ between an A5 and an A10 is substantial

[mvandor]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I'd like to make 2 statements:

First: I think Mark and Troy have it right. I believe it should be a combination of factors and not just whether or not a jersey has wear on it or not when trying to determine authenticity of a jersey. How can someone discount a jersey because it does NOT have a lot of wear? Who can say what the journey of any jersey, vintage or modern, was if they weren't in the locker-room? There could be a multitude of reasons why a jersey doesn't show wear - it could have been stolen, donated to charity, player superstitions, injury, player released or taken by a player or staff member and given away to friends. It could have been removed after one game, two games or a seasons worth of use.

Second: I like MEARS and I think they do a good job. BUT, what's with the different grades of authenticity? A jersey should be either authentic or not authentic. It's like being pregnant - either you are or you are not pregnant. That's it.

But that's just my opinion.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

That would actually drop them to the level of autograph authenticators. I think their grading system speaks to the LIKELIHOOD an item is legitimate. I assume obvious fakes get their "unable to authenticate", no?

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Good Morning Joel....

I don' want to wase my entire Saturday putting A5 examples up here....You've seen as many as I've seen over the years....how about Tom Brady's, Kobe Bryant, and Steelers jerseys?...go to E-bay, i'm sure there's a few Lebron James' on there....usually is

The A-5 is the biggest joke of all....if they would have gone with a pass/fail it wouldn't be as a big an issue to me...but the difference in $ between an A5 and an A10 is substantial

Ok, so you don't like their system, so what is the big deal? Don't buy items they have authenticated. Buy items authenticated by other authenticators.

You can pick and choose your arguments over the A5 grade, conceit facts are much more appealing than a blanket statement that you cannot back up without doing some homework.

[G1X]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

lund6771,

My post was not intended to validate the Jim Brown jersey, but rather to point out a very educational piece of information about older football jerseys stated by Troy Kinunen that was buried in post #15. I have not seen the Jim Brown jersey in person or held it in my hands, so I have no comment about its authenticity. That was the purpose of my disclaimer at the end of the fourth paragraph in my previous post.

I was simply intending to make a point about 20th century football jerseys in general, not the Jim Brown jersey in question. In my 34 years of rambling around this hobby, this seems to be an area of collecting that is poorly understood by most collectors.

All I am trying to do is share information from my experiences with those who are willing to listen and learn.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

[otismalibu]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Ok, so you don't like their system, so what is the big deal? Don't buy items they have authenticated.

Based on this reasoning, I guess if you don't like slavery, don't buy slaves.

No one is forcing you to.

Sour grapes!!!

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Second: I like MEARS and I think they do a good job. BUT, what's with the different grades of authenticity? A jersey should be either authentic or not authentic. It's like being pregnant - either you are or you are not pregnant. That's it.

Jim

i've long thought that as well. from what i can tell, MEARS' intention wasn't to render a conclusive verdict per se but simply provide information for buyers to make their own minds up. i can understand that, however, in that case, why even bother with subjective interpretations/evaluations? simply sell the raw research itself and really let folks make up their minds. rather than have bushing say a bat matches factory records and sell that opinion, for example, sell the actual factory record itself and really let folks make up their minds.

at the end of the day, all buyers ultimately care about is whether a jersey was likely to have been game-worn or not likely. "L" or "NL". simple huh? they could still outline all of their reasoning behind either grade in the corresponding worksheets. i still have no idea what the differences are between an A6, A7, A8, A9. i've read through all of their documentation and from what i gather you can get points taken off for things like a missing button or a stain. for the love of pete, what does a missing button have to do with authenticity? is a jersey with a missing button less likely to have been game worn than a jersey with the button intact? what's the difference between an A1 and an A3? all i know is both have serious issues. who cares about varying degrees of serious issues if the final point is that the jersey is "unlikely to have been game worn"? does it matter that one jersey has an incorrect nob font, incorrect numbers, and missing patch and the other has all of those plus it's the wrong size, wrong customization, and wrong material? they're both garbage! garbage is garbage. what's the benefit in discerning and categorizing different shades of garbage? "hey guys i got an A3. the jersey's got serious issues but thank god it's not an A1 because then i'd really be in trouble". it puts a tremendous onus on buyers to read through all of the grade definitions and understand them, which is an arduous task in itself.

as well, the grading system has really opened up a can of worms for mears. by having such a variable scale, it gives the individual authenticator a lot of leeway to slide across the grades. maybe, for example, he doesn't see a large stain on the front and maybe an A9 becomes an A10. this problem would be entirely avoided with a "Likely" and "Not likely" grade. it's simply too easy and too subjective to slide across 10 different grades and that's where many of MEARS headaches have come from. folks arguing they should've gotten an A8 instead of an A7 for example. simply having 2 grades would really simplify the entire thing for everyone. they could still include all of the worksheets.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Based on this reasoning, I guess if you don't like slavery, don't buy slaves.

No one is forcing you to.

Sour grapes!!!

i'm surprised joel was such a fervant obama supporter given that barack ran on a platform of "change". one would've thought the alpertian response to barack's constant promises of substantial change would've been to tell him if he doesn't like the way america currently is, he's not forced to live here.

don't like how the war was handled, obama? sour grapes! obama's just jealous of bush's amazing military strategery!

rudy.

[nyjetsfan14]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

lund6771,

My post was not intended to validate the Jim Brown jersey, but rather to point out a very educational piece of information about older football jerseys stated by Troy Kinunen that was buried in post #15. I have not seen the Jim Brown jersey in person or held it in my hands, so I have no comment about its authenticity. That was the purpose of my disclaimer at the end of the fourth paragraph in my previous post.

I was simply intending to make a point about 20th century football jerseys in general, not the Jim Brown jersey in question. In my 34 years of rambling around this hobby, this seems to be an area of collecting that is poorly understood by most collectors.

All I am trying to do is share information from my experiences with those who are willing to listen and learn.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

Greetings Mark, long time no chat. I hope this post finds you in good health and spirits. I trust you are enjoying a very successful Falcons season thus far.

I was leaning towards letting the well knowns air this one out but when I saw your post I decided to throw my hat in the ring as it is always a rewarding exchange when we interact regarding football collecting. While I understand most on this forum (and off) are unfamiliar with me, my Jets collection, and my experience/knowledge of Jets uniform traits I think you know a little bit about me. I personally authenticate all Jets pieces I purchase/trade for and put no stock in any third party authenticators and/or their documentation when it comes to Jets items (not saying that as a slight against any particular person rather I just prefer to do and trust my own research). If and when I have any doubts/questions about a Jets piece that I cannot answer with my extensive Jets library and resources I confer with a fellow Jets collector/friend who happens to be a respected member of this forum. I unfortunately have seen more misauthenticated (yes I am aware I may have just made up a word) Jets items for auction than I care to discuss.

With that being said, I was a bit taken aback when you agreed with the authenticator that 90 plus percent of legitimate vintage game worn AFL or NFL jerseys will demonstrate no team instituted repairs. This is absolutely positively not the case with New York Jets jerseys from the AFL or early merger era. Even most common Jets player jerseys from that particular era more often than not (that could be anywhere from 51% to 49% and up) will exhibit use to include team repairs (of course obviously a players position, type of playing style, and amount of playing time will have a dynamic impact on percentages). If someone offered me say a Matt Snell NY Jets AFL or early merger era game worn jersey that had no team repairs and tried to insinuate that it was in fact a perfect example of a Matt Snell jersey from said era, that would be a laughable scenario and an insult to my collecting knowledge. I would be further insulted if they tried to tell me good wear was shown via the crotch piece with evidence of numerous buttonings and unbuttonings. I am in no way saying that a jersey of such a player as Matt Snell displaying no team repairs would or could not have belonged to/been issued for/or used by Matt Snell nor am I saying that the crotch piece wear should not be taken into consideration but to give it a label of perfect example or A10 or whatever else someone might want to call it is just not correct in my mind. While undoubtedly there would be a percentage of jerseys from said era that might not exhibit team repairs (the approximate percentage could be debated I am sure and factors as mentioned above would come into play) I find it nearly impossible to fathom that 90 or more out of 100 jerseys of players who played significant time during that era would exhibit use without team repairs, to me that is irresponsible writing solely dedicated to selling a particular item.

When we talk about perfect examples or A10's it would only stand to reason that we expect the piece to be positively the premeire example of a jersey from that player. If we are talking about a perfect example of a Jan Stenereud game worn jersey that would more than likely be a jersey with no team instituted repairs but when we are talking about a Jim Brown game worn jersey, who was clearly one of the more physical runners to ever put on shoulder pads, I just don't feel a jersey of his without team repairs but with crotch piece wear would warrant a "perfect" label or A10. I think it was the grade awarded considering the above that really stirred the conflict of interset pot.

Before we annoint pieces with LOA's, grade numbers, worksheets, expert opinions, etc...

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=18550

Thanks for hearing me out Mark. All the best and enjoy the rest of the NFL season. Happy collecting to all and may everyone have a warm and safe Thanksgiving!

[RKGIBSON]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

First, I think the whole authentication field is a joke, a big rip off. The only impact any of them have had on this hobby is negative. I would think their mission is to deem a item real or not? I would like for them to admit they are not really interested is saying that a item is real or not, they are just interested in getting paid for every item that is submitted. A5 to me means that there is a 50/50 chance it is real. Its a score not a authentication. I would think that making your opinion something that is understandable and something that is not open to interpetation would be a goal if you really know what you are talking about. I would bet that most of their customers are dealers that are hoping to use their smoke and mirrors grading system to trick some unknowledgable person out of a few more bucks.

Joel, you seem to be the mouth piece for MEARS here. A couple questions;
How does any jersey that has a photo match not get the highest score? It is proven real, right?

How can any jersey that has no provenace, or photo match, get the highest score? Recieving the highest score should be reserved for a item that there is absolutely no doubt it is real, right?

I do not know any of the guys at MEARS. I would guess that each has a lot of knowledge on somethings and not much on others. Collectively they have a lot of knowledge. I would guess that to properly evaluate a Jim Brown jersey you would have had to have had one, that was known to be real, to compare to and proof that Brown wore this one, in order to render a opinion that this is perfect. It is true that general knowledge of Browns jerseys from this era could be obtained by looking at common player jerseys. I would think that if absolute accuracy was their goal in evaluating, potentially, one of the most significate jerseys in existance, the highest score would only be awarded if there was absolutely no doubt. If getting the most money out of a item was the goal, the scrutiny might be less.

Roger