1989 Griffey - Ebay

[Eric]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

I agree with you- Rudy is a valuable member of this forum. He has great insight, and i enjoy learning from his posts.

Unfortunately his account was suspended (for 5 days- which has passed) because a rule that I remind people over and over was not followed. Plus, I had just made a post saying that the rule had been ignored too often recently and future violations will result in suspensions.

Simply, before coming on here and calling someone's item a fake- contact the seller with your questions.

That gives the seller a chance to give an explanation. The seller's reaction is a valuable piece of info in deciding to do future business with the seller. Maybe it was an honest mistake. Maybe the seller didn't know what he was selling. It is not necessarily someone "trying to pull one over."

Also, the reason for the rule is to make sure that unfounded accusations are not thrown around on this forum. If that were the case it would have very little credibility.

I think I need to explain something here. I am by no means saying questionable items and questionable practices should not be discussed on this forum.

They should- it's part of educating each other and it's part of helping the hobby evolve.

We have the right to share facts and sprited opinions on these topics. I am just saying, take the extra step and attempt to talk to the seller before making your post.

Thanks
Eric

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

...than a cheap made up rule that restrains opinion.

Hello dranimal,

Thank you for your post. I did, however, feel the need to add something here.

This site was created to benefit the game used collecting community. As such, one of the issues we had to address on the forum was how to, along with encouraging the dissemination of information, protect industry participants from posts having the potential to unnecessarily discredit them and affect their livelihoods. That is not to say an item someone is selling cannot be challenge. In fact, it is quite the opposite. However, if someone's item is going to be challenged, we have established a process to do this so sellers, who may not be aware of issues with their items, can be alerted and given a chance to address the issues before their reputations are challenged on the forum. While you can say a seller can come on later and defend themselves, I can tell you that these type of threads have far reaching implications on someone's reputation (whether justified or not) once a thread is initiated. That is why I think the seller in this instance responded so emotionally.

Thus, we do welcome people on the forum to inform other members of issues that may exist with an item, or even with a seller. All we ask is that the rules are followed to make sure things are done responsibly and that the forum doesn't lose it's credibility and be labeled (as some in the hobby have tried to do) as simply a place where disgruntled collectors with private agendas try to bash sellers in an attempt to discredit them.

Personally, I don't think asking people to follow the protocols we have established will prevent anyone from sharing information that can help people make more informed purchase decisions. In fact, when you look at the site, with areas like the experts corner and bat shipping records information, do you honestly think we we would create a "cheap made up rule that restrains opinion"? We are out to help the hobby and, in my opinion, one of the reasons we are become such a driving force is because people are recognizing (contrary to what some say about us) that we are not some renegade faction of zealots with private agendas out to discredit everyone in the hobby.

One last thought. While I have as much respect for Rudy as anyone on the forum and think his posts are among the most valuable on the site, there is no way the rules can work if they are not applied to everyone without partiality. In fact, I have emailed Rudy and he informed me that he was not totally aware of the rule asking posters to contact a seller, and giving the seller an opportunity to respond, before posting any "issues" with an item. Unfortunately, while I know Rudy would not intentionally violate any of the rules, the #1 rule on the site states "You are required to know the rules of the forum - ignorance of the rules will not be a defense." Thus, while we could have tried to justify looking the other way and letting it go, if the rules are not applied to everyone (including those like Rudy who are among the most valuable to the forum) then there is no use having them.

While the rules may not please everyone, I hope our members can understand their purpose and respect them. I believe they are helping this forum gain credibility so that others cannot simply "cry foul" whenever legitimate questions are raised regarding their merchandise. While I also know Rudy's intentions were not to try to discredit the seller and the last thing we want to do is discourage someone like him from posting, I hope everyone can appreciate the rules have to be enforced with even our most valued members if they are going to have any credence whatsoever.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

[JimCaravello]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

Just my two cents worth, as I have been following this thread pretty closely. I just recently completed a great sales transaction with Rudy and was very disappointed to see that he was suspended. Also - he has added a ton of insight with all of his postings on the Forum for a long time. He is a great asset to the GUU Community. He is one of the few members in which I read all of his postings - as I learn so much.

All that being said, I think the punishment fits the crime so to speak. Five days is really not that bad for a small violation of the rules - and yes, I think we need rules on the Forum. If I break the rules, I should be suspended, as well as anyone else. Unfortulately, we need rules or the Forum could turn into a haven of unfiltered comments which would turn a lot of people off and which ultimately would ruin the great progress that the Forum and GUU have had on the hobby. Think about the Forum with no rules, no accountability to who you are, etc. That's not for me - and I think most people would agree. The rules of the Forum are designed to promote the hobby which we all love.

The rules are fairly basic and hopefully they will prevent the bashing of dealers, collectors, etc. Now Rudy didn't bash anyone - he just brought up facts as he saw them. Unfortunately, without the rules, not everyone would post as Rudy did - they would post with the same facts and bash or throw the seller under the bus. I think its important that we give every seller the benefit of the doubt - even though that is tough to do sometimes. In the long run, it will be better for all involved. As a contributing Expert I want to be associated with a site that is not labeled as a dumping ground of messages and posts with no rules. I want people to say "man, you have to visit GUU and the Forum.... there is this guy Rudy out there that knows everything about game used jerseys"..........

Rudy - I hope you can see your way through this. I haven't seen any new postings from you since the end of your suspension. I think I speak for many others on the site and look forward to your future postings - which as mentioned above, contain a wealth of information. Jim

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

Name one.

This Griffey Jr. size debate could be easily answered if Centerfield Sports revealed an armpit to armpit measurement of the jersey in question. Members with known legit examples of late 80s-early 90s Rawlings shirts could measure their size 44s or 46s to compare. The tag may be mis-marked, but the armpit to armpit measurement is carved in stone.

I realize the auction ended, however, we never did find out an armpit to armpit measurement. I figured that since the seller has already responded to this thread, this would be an O.K. place to ask. Maybe Rawlings simply put a 40 tag on a 44 or 46...without the measurements, we will never know.

[hblakewolf]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

Jim-I agree that Rudy adds a tremendous amount to this site. Although there are rules in place, in this case, I must disagree with Eric handing him a 5 day suspension. What people don't realize is that the forum needs posters like Rudy-Rudy does not seen the Forum. As such, I would not be too surprised if Rudy does not return.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Just my two cents worth, as I have been following this thread pretty closely. I just recently completed a great sales transaction with Rudy and was very disappointed to see that he was suspended. Also - he has added a ton of insight with all of his postings on the Forum for a long time. He is a great asset to the GUU Community. He is one of the few members in which I read all of his postings - as I learn so much.

All that being said, I think the punishment fits the crime so to speak. Five days is really not that bad for a small violation of the rules - and yes, I think we need rules on the Forum. If I break the rules, I should be suspended, as well as anyone else. Unfortulately, we need rules or the Forum could turn into a haven of unfiltered comments which would turn a lot of people off and which ultimately would ruin the great progress that the Forum and GUU have had on the hobby. Think about the Forum with no rules, no accountability to who you are, etc. That's not for me - and I think most people would agree. The rules of the Forum are designed to promote the hobby which we all love.

The rules are fairly basic and hopefully they will prevent the bashing of dealers, collectors, etc. Now Rudy didn't bash anyone - he just brought up facts as he saw them. Unfortunately, without the rules, not everyone would post as Rudy did - they would post with the same facts and bash or throw the seller under the bus. I think its important that we give every seller the benefit of the doubt - even though that is tough to do sometimes. In the long run, it will be better for all involved. As a contributing Expert I want to be associated with a site that is not labeled as a dumping ground of messages and posts with no rules. I want people to say "man, you have to visit GUU and the Forum.... there is this guy Rudy out there that knows everything about game used jerseys"..........

Rudy - I hope you can see your way through this. I haven't seen any new postings from you since the end of your suspension. I think I speak for many others on the site and look forward to your future postings - which as mentioned above, contain a wealth of information. Jim

[Eric]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

Jim-I agree that Rudy adds a tremendous amount to this site. Although there are rules in place, in this case, I must disagree with Eric handing him a 5 day suspension. What people don't realize is that the forum needs posters like Rudy-Rudy does not seen the Forum. As such, I would not be too surprised if Rudy does not return.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

I agree with you- the forum does need posters like Rudy. No one is saying we don't. It would be really unfortunate if he chose not to come back.
Eric

[JimCaravello]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

One other thing I failed to mention earlier.....I participate in a couple of other Forums outside of this one for other hobbies that I am involved in ( yes - my wife does see me and does communicate to me occasionally ) - and they all have rules and regulations - as well as suspension policies very similar to our Forum.....just thought I would comment on that. Jim

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

What people don't realize is that the forum needs posters like Rudy-Rudy does not seen the Forum.

That's an interesting opinion Howard. Though I guess my view is a little different. I think we all need each other if we are going to continue to improve the hobby that we all claim to love.

I guess that is what makes us all unique.

Sincerely,
Chris

[trsent]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

Rudy has told me this is a hobby to him as he turned down my offer to start a photo-matching authentication service with him previously. I believe Rudy, just like many of us, need this forum and the forum needs us.

[josports]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

I think we all need each other if we are going to continue to improve the hobby that we all claim to love.

I guess that is what makes us all unique.

Sincerely,
Chris

I agree with that statement.
JO

[MSpecht]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

This discussion has had valid points posted throughout on several sides of the issue. After thinking about it for the past few days, I remain convinced that there is no clear-cut, black-and-white correct position.

First, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Rudy and the knowledge and expertise he brings to this forum. For someone who is a hobbyist, his research and reasoned opinions are first rate. I have spent alot of money printing out glossy photos of his labeling information posts for my personal reference files. As someone said previously in this thread, Rudy's posts are always a must read for me, even if the general topic is one which is of minimal interest to me or even one with which I am not familiar. I sincerely hope the forum does not lose Rudy as a frequent contributor.

Second, I am absolutely convinced that Eric, whom I have only known through posts on this forum and possibly an email or two, is sincere in his vision for this site and there is no hidden agenda in his efforts. Anyone who has spent the time and effort and personal resources to begin what was basically an interactive blog site -- Game Used Forum -- and bring it to the point that it is now, has my respect and appreciation. I've been an active participant in the hobby for over 30 years and the list of truly selfless people out there is, well, let's just say it doesn't take too long to call role.

Third, I have been equally impressed with Chris, with whom I have had frequent hobby-related, non-hobby-related, and philosophical correspondence and phone conversations over the past months, and am happy to call him a friend. His desire to elevate the general knowledge base of the hobby in an effort to make public much of the information that often has been in possession of only a privileged few, is, in my opinion, unequaled. This is not to say that over the years there have not been people willing to share information with others, but Chris has found a mechanism to bring it together in a manner more accessible that has been previously possible. His efforts, of course, are assisted by technological advances that make the old days of digging through your desk for Dick Dobbins' phone number fairly obsolete.

I believe that the basic question to consider in this situation is simple -- motive. Was the intent of Rudy's original post to inform people of information he possessed that, in his opinion, may have assisted them in making a decision on whether or not to add this particular item to their personal collection, or was his intent to "call-out" a specific seller in an accusatory manner? While I believe 100 % that the former was the case, I also know that if I was the seller of the item, I would have liked to have been the first person to receive Rudy's information and had a chance to research the matter myself before being the target of what could be viewed as an accusatory post. There is a reason that rules have been put in place in the forum -- irresponsible postings with secondary personal agendas could run wild if posters could hide behind anoniminity or didn't have to defend their opinions with factual information. Or, as in this case, give a seller a 24 hour window of opportunity to evaluate his item based on information that you have that he may not.

I realize that the opportunity exists for forum members to wonder if I am applying a double standard here, as I frequently post information on this forum about H & B Louisville Slugger factory records. With some regularity I include a personal opinion on whether a specific bat is what the seller or auction house purports it to be -- an opinion that may be positive or negative about the item. Is that any different than what Rudy did in his original post on the Griffey Jr. jersey? I don't honestly know, and that is the grey area

The standard that I have chosen to set for myself is that I will respond honestly to any request that comes my way, with all the factual information I have access to, whether the genesis of the request is a bat currently in a person's personal possession or a bat that is currently in auction from either an auction house or on Ebay. I do not contact the seller first in most cases, unless it is someone with whom I have an established relationship and can pick up the phone and call. I also do not patrol the depths of Ebay or the auction houses as a self-appointed Auction Cop -- that would certainly be a full-time job in itself. On the other hand, I have assisted people in getting refunds from Ebay and yes, even PayPal, and have convinced sellers that the merchandise they auctioned was not what they thought it was (yes, that's an overly generous, politically correct statement.) Have there been times when I am convinced that someone is about to get taken, big time? Absolutely! Have there been times when I wish someone would ask a question on the forum about a certain item so that I could respond with both barrels? Yes indeed! Have there been times when the potential cost of an item was so out-of-line with its actual value due to a misrepresentation that I felt compelled to contact bidders? Yes, but only twice when the seller refused to correct demonstrable mis-statements.



I realize that I have set my somewhat defined standards, in part, because of my association with Game Used Universe and my association with a national authentication service. Others may not feel compelled to such restrictions. Still, ultimately, the test comes down to a simple one -- are the actions of a forum member intended to further knowledge of the hobby and promote its well-being, or is there something else going on? The grey area is in the execution, and that is why basic, minimal rules have been established by Eric and Chris, who have put themselves on the line as parties responsible for the comments and representations that appear on this forum and, by extension, the conduct of forum members. In this case, would a reminder or 'warning' to Rudy to be mindful of GUU forum protocol (rules) have been sufficient to prevent a repeat of the situation? I believe so, but was the 5 day suspension overly harsh in response? Probably not.


Hopefully this will be a reminder to all, including myself, to post in a responsible manner, and take a second to consider the potential impact of your comments. Sometimes, people do just make mistakes, with no fraud or malice intended. As Sigmund Freud once said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."



Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

I realize the auction ended, however, we never did find out an armpit to armpit measurement. I figured that since the seller has already responded to this thread, this would be an O.K. place to ask. Maybe Rawlings simply put a 40 tag on a 44 or 46...without the measurements, we will never know.

Hello Everyone,

Let me first say thank you to everyone for sharing their thoughts on this thread. I truly appreciate the opportunity to hear everyone's sentiments. Personally, I would like to leave a couple of last thoughts on the subject and hope we can move forward with our attempts to help the hobby.

Regarding the quote above by both-teams-played-hard, this is exactly the reason we are exerting so much effort to make sure the posts are done in a responsible manner. This question deserves to be answered. Instead, the thread ended up going down the path where the seller came back with comments such as "This is why this forum sucks. You never give anyone a chance. No wonder people don't like to post on it" and "I know alot of big dealers who will never post on this forum because of this reason. No chance is given. Back them into a corner and then beat them with bats."

While it seems strange that I have to say this, we involved with the administration of the site want to make sure our members have useful information as much as anyone. We wouldn't have invested so much time and money to help the hobby if we didn't. However, we are not interested in creating some form of wild, wild west where posters can shoot first and ask questions later. We have chosen to implement some basic rules which we believe will create a forum that is responsible in its actions toward the collecting community at large and is respected as a site that hobbyists know has their best interests in mind.

I strongly believe if these basic, simple rules are followed those involved with this forum would be spending more time getting answers to the type of questions BTPH has asked above and less time trying to combat the accusations of defensive sellers or answering calls from people claiming they want to sue the site administrators and the people making posts they believe are unjustifiably damaging their business. As a side note, for everyone's information, we get calls all the time from offended parties threatening legal action. These same callers often request your personal information --which we do not give out.

While I realize some posters want a site where they can post their grievances without any limitations, the truth is that is not the type of site we are interested in running here. Our goal is to help the collecting community the best way we know how. As such, I can tell you that having these rules allows us to: a) create a positive environment where participants can exchange useful information and maximize their benefits from the exchange; b) make sure our site acts responsibly as a growing force in the hobby; and c) spend our time coming up with ways to help the hobby rather than constantly dealing with accusations and potential lawsuits. If others want a site where there are no rules to prevent the potential conflicts like ones where sellers -- who simply may not know of the potential issues with their items -- feel unjustly threatened and lash out at the forum or where the site administrators will spend their time dealing with accusations and legal implications rather than focusing on more ways to help the hobby, you will likely need to look elsewhere.

As for this site, I can assure you that we have many things planned that are going to continue to help the game used collecting community enormously. I hope those participating in the site trust that we have taken all these things into consideration and join with us in our efforts to make the hobby a better place for everyone.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

[BaseballGM]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

To me, if the goal of having this site is to truely help those interested in game used items, then I believe members should be allowed to voice opinions as to the legitimacy of game used items. The basic issue in collecting is to know, or to have a reasonable certainty of whether the item is as its description states or claims to represent. Those who knowingly attempt to deceive should be held accountable and identified. That's what operation bullpen was all about.

Having said that, I want to thank those who were helpful in discussing hobby related issues with me. I'm choosing not to participate anymore but wish the best of luck to you in all of your collecting interests. -Kevin

[Eric]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

To me, if the goal of having this site is to truely help those interested in game used items, then I believe members should be allowed to voice opinions as to the legitimacy of game used items. The basic issue in collecting is to know, or to have a reasonable certainty of whether the item is as its description states or claims to represent. Those who knowingly attempt to deceive should be held accountable and identified. That's what operation bullpen was all about.

Having said that, I want to thank those who were helpful in discussing hobby related issues with me. I'm choosing not to participate anymore but wish the best of luck to you in all of your collecting interests. -Kevin

I think you're missing the point. Members ARE allowed to voice their opinions on the legitimacy of game used items. Just ask your question to the seller first before posting your opinions here, incase it's an honest mistake and not someone trying to deceive.

You're 100 percent correct- Those who knowingly attempt to deceive should be held accountable and identified. No one is saying they shouldn't.

Eric
moderator

Eric

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: 1989 Griffey - Ebay

To me, if the goal of having this site is to truely help those interested in game used items, then I believe members should be allowed to voice opinions as to the legitimacy of game used items. The basic issue in collecting is to know, or to have a reasonable certainty of whether the item is as its description states or claims to represent. Those who knowingly attempt to deceive should be held accountable and identified. That's what operation bullpen was all about.

In the words of Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny, "There appears to be a great deal of confusion here." This forum does exactly what is mentioned above, allow members to voice their opinions and help people make more informed decisions about the potential legitimacy of 'game-used' items. The issue has to do with the way we approach this objective and the subsequent results we achieve. Let me give you two recent examples of threads on this forum where the rules were followed and compare them to the results on this particular thread.

The first example where the rules were followed involved a Cal Ripen Jr. bat that was claimed to be 'game used' when, in fact, it was not. Please notice how in this thread our members were made aware of the issues with the bat and the seller ended up pulling the item off eBay due to the efforts of those on this forum. This is a textbook example of where forum members were made aware of a suspect item and where the seller, who was misinformed, ended up doing the responsible thing when accurate information was brought to their attention. The seller was not trying to 'deceive' anyone but was rather working off incorrect information (information that was corrected by those within the forum). Here is the thread:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2398

The second example of when the rules were followed involves a retail bat that the seller claimed was 'game used'. Importantly, while following the rules, the members of this forum were made aware of the issues with the bat and the seller has also been contacted with accurate information. While at the time of this posting the seller has yet to respond, it unfortunately appears that the seller in this situation may not be doing the right thing. If that is the case, any 'deceptive' tactics will also be brought to light here in a manner that will be hard for the seller to refute, especially given the seller has been afforded an opportunity to respond. If so, it will also achieve your stated objective that "Those who knowingly attempt to deceive should be held accountable and identified". Here is the thread:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2452

Let's now compare the outcomes of those threads with the outcome of the one here. Unfortunately, in this thread the seller believed he was unjustly accused of doing something deceitful and was not given a chance to respond privately before he felt he was publicly accused of something he felt he didn't do. As a result, the concern of this forum -- the legitimacy of the item and the presentation of information necessary to assist in making an informed decision -- took a back seat to the defensive reaction of a seller (who is a registered member of this forum) who believed that he was unfairly backed into a corner without first being presented with information with which to evaluate his own item. No one was well-served by this turn of events. Empirically speaking, I would have to say I don't think the rules prevent the identification of suspect items or suspect sellers. In fact, I think when followed they will do exactly the opposite.

Lastly, in regards to the latter part of the quote above, I think it is also important to realize that we are not Operation Bullpen and that the URL of this site is not 'auctionpolice.com'. The goal here is to help our members make informed decisions regarding the game used memorabilia hobby...a goal we will continue to make happen in even greater ways as you will soon see.

While I don't know if I can be as effective as Vincent LaGuardia Gambini in My Cousin Vinny, I can only hope that this clears up some of the misperceptions I think exist regarding the forum. That is, we will achieve the greatest benefits in our efforts to help improve the hobby when we challenge what needs to be challenged while also acting responsibly. I also hope this forum will continue to help people such as BaseballGM who, if he does decide to post again, we would gladly welcome back with open arms.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe