A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

[sammy]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Regardless of how anyone feels about Mr. Koschal, it was due to his and Ron Keurajian's efforts that the letter was pulled from the REA auction, thus saving some other unlucky bidder the same fate as the consignor, who purchased the letter from Hunt auctions for 29,900.00.

It was not due to the efforts of PSA/DNA or JSA, who both originally authenticated the letter as genuine.

On the last day of the auction, Mr. Lifson sent an email to Steve Koschal indicating “the Delahanty letter has been withdrawn from the auction....”


Mr. Lifson continued (referring to a response he received from James Spence): “...is no longer comfortable with their previous authentication, and believes the letter appears to be a vintage secretarial version.

[trsent]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Regardless of how anyone feels about Mr. Koschal, it was due to his and Ron Keurajian's efforts that the letter was pulled from the REA auction, thus saving some other unlucky bidder the same fate as the consignor, who purchased the letter from Hunt auctions for 29,900.00.

It was not due to the efforts of PSA/DNA or JSA, who both originally authenticated the letter as genuine.

On the last day of the auction, Mr. Lifson sent an email to Steve Koschal indicating “the Delahanty letter has been withdrawn from the auction....”


Mr. Lifson continued (referring to a response he received from James Spence): “...is no longer comfortable with their previous authentication, and believes the letter appears to be a vintage secretarial version.

I do not understand, you want us to tell you we approve of what you say they did now?

How about this example?





Why was this great error not listed on the web site?

I have more, but I have work to do so I will post more later today if necessary. Pretty funny. Guy owns an authentication service, and you say he single handedly had a suspect lot removed and now we have to appreciate his attacking web site?

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

[earlywynnfan]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

By the way, Robert, Joel would like you to cease and desist posts like this one:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=25400

Dragging up old auctions and showing what's wrong with them will only lead to the companies' archives being removed, and that hurts all of us. This, of course, far outweighs any good seeing such crap identified can bring.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[mvandor]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

great adage, love it, words to live by. on the other hand "dismiss the source" doesn't quite have the same ring, doesn't quite impart the same sage advice - probably the reason it hasn't enjoyed similar success.

if i stumbled across an anonymously authored blog filled with accusations concerning those that deal in vintage football helmets, those that authenticate vintage football helmets, i wouldn't immediately backspace and move on. i would, as always, "consider the source" and read on. and what i read would have merit or it wouldn't. if i later discovered that the author was the one responsible for doctoring many of the vintage helmets currently in circulation, it would most likely have little impact on what i had read at his site. why? because i had already "considered the source" - i had not taken what he had written as gospel, i had independently verified or rejected his claims and had already drawn my own conclusions.

...

I learned a long time ago, seldom is anything as it seems at first glance when ultimately placed in a proper perspective.

As for the general topic, I don't like authentication errors, but I know they're going to be made. And I personally feel there is a legitimate place in the autograph hobby for good, professional, 3rd party authentication services. Others don't. Do I feel people should be held accountable for their work? Sure. However, liability can be counterproductive, look at the insane rise in health care costs due to the billions handed out in court cases and settlements. The system is at the breaking point.

Always a bigger picture to consider.

[sammy]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Joel,

Why do you state the Apollo 11 photo is a "great error"?

------------------------------------------------------

Please put all the "great errors" you have on here.

I would personally like all this garbage exposed, regardless of who authenticated it

------------------------------------------------------

[trsent]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

I was thinking today about how if Lou Lampson had a secret web site that we all knew he owned and he listed errors other authenticators made, and then praised himself everyone would go crazy.

Ok, here is another example I was emailed today:

[aeneas01]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

I learned a long time ago, seldom is anything as it seems at first glance when ultimately placed in a proper perspective.

As for the general topic, I don't like authentication errors, but I know they're going to be made. And I personally feel there is a legitimate place in the autograph hobby for good, professional, 3rd party authentication services. Others don't. Do I feel people should be held accountable for their work? Sure. However, liability can be counterproductive, look at the insane rise in health care costs due to the billions handed out in court cases and settlements. The system is at the breaking point.

Always a bigger picture to consider.

i don't think there's a bigger picture to consider at all - if someone, anonymously or not, with baggage or not, alerts collectors to problems i'm all for it. as a collector i'm only interested in information and could care less about what the motive might or might not be, could care less whether or not the one pointing the finger resides in a bigger glass house than the other. further, to debate whether or not psa/dna is a more respectable outfit than autographalert is to miss the point entirely.

authenticators, like all for profit businesses, hang their shingles and therefore should be held responsible for their work, especially considering how they continue to package their work. to suggest that collectors should tread lightly or temper their scrutiny in these matters, for fear that the cost to collectors may be severe should this force authenticators out of business, is absolutely insane imo.

...

[aeneas01]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

I was thinking today about how if Lou Lampson had a secret web site that we all knew he owned and he listed errors other authenticators made, and then praised himself everyone would go crazy. Ok, here is another example I was emailed today:

again, what exactly does this have to do with presenting information to collectors? has autographalert's scrutiny privileges been forever revoked because they've dropped the ball as well? when they point to issues should these issues be dismissed out of hand because they have a sketchy past? is that what i'm hearing? an employee gets fired for stealing and turns around and tells the local newspapaer that his former employer has been dumping toxic waste into the nearby creek. dismiss the fired employee's claims, he's obviously a thief with an axe to grind, or check into his story?

....

[trsent]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

again, what exactly does this have to do with presenting information to collectors? has autographalert's scrutiny privileges been forever revoked because they've dropped the ball as well? when they point to issues should these issues be dismissed out of hand because they have a sketchy past? is that what i'm hearing? an employee gets fired for stealing and turns around and tells the local newspapaer that his former employer has been dumping toxic waste into the nearby creek. dismiss the fired employee's claims, he's obviously a thief with an axe to grind, or check into his story?

....

Robert - When a company has a secret agenda to try to help their own company, but we find they are suspect people themselves, something doesn't add up.

Again, I love your work on this forum, but do not tell me if someone makes a mistake that the criminals can show it off in their own private site to glorify themselves.

There is a big picture here, and the crooks are picking on the people trying real hard (who will make mistakes)

[sammy]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Again, I ask you what is wrong with the Apollo 11 photo?

What is wrong with the DiMaggio jersey?

If you are going to use these as examples to claim authentication of forgeries, then you should point out the reasons why, or name your source.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you would care to read the www.autographalert.com, I believe their agenda, as you state, is very clear.

There is nothing hidden, as they plainly state in English what their purpose is.

For all we know your source for the photos you are posting is one of the other authentication companies mentioned.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[aeneas01]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

who cares if someone has a secret agenda, is posting from san quentin while serving a thirty year stretch, kicks the dog on a regular basis, has designs to corner the market by attacking the competition, is an all around bad guy, doesn't practice what he preaches, doesn't give mom a jingle on mother's day? so what?

what on earth does this have to do with information, the topic at hand? either the information is true or it isn't - nothing contained in an accuser's computer dating profile matters. show me a site that offers nothing but blatant lies, false accusations, unfounded claims and worthless information and i will agree with you. but i've noticed that no one is stating that about autographalert.

heck, the references to the schmidt and bando fiascos involving spence on fox news is alone worth a visit. not because they were horribly embarrassing moments for spence and his company, but because it was a rare opportunity to watch one of these guys in action, applying their "expertise" to the task at hand. very scary.

btw i think it's pretty bizarre that someone would be so rabidly ardent in their negative portrayal of autographalert in this situation - i mean everyone gets it, everyone understands the score over there, no one is under the impression that the place is a pillar of integrity. as such continuing to post examples of their bungled work is rather peculiar - even more peculiar are the claims that folks are "glorifying" the site. especially considering that the topic at hand has nothing to with which of of two owns the better resume. truly bizarre.

...

[mvandor]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

who cares if someone has a secret agenda, is posting from san quentin while serving a thirty year stretch, kicks the dog on a regular basis, has designs to corner the market by attacking the competition, is an all around bad guy, doesn't practice what he preaches, doesn't give mom a jingle on mother's day? so what?

what on earth does this have to do with information, the topic at hand? either the information is true or it isn't - nothing contained in an accuser's computer dating profile matters. show me a site that offers nothing but blatant lies, false accusations, unfounded claims and worthless information and i will agree with you. but i've noticed that no one is stating that about autographalert.

heck, the references to the schmidt and bando fiascos involving spence on fox news is alone worth a visit. not because they were horribly embarrassing moments for spence and his company, but because it was a rare opportunity to watch one of these guys in action, applying their "expertise" to the task at hand. very scary.

btw i think it's pretty bizarre that someone would be so rabidly ardent in their negative portrayal of autographalert in this situation - i mean everyone gets it, everyone understands the score over there, no one is under the impression that the place is a pillar of integrity. as such continuing to post examples of their bungled work is rather peculiar - even more peculiar are the claims that folks are "glorifying" the site. especially considering that the topic at hand has nothing to with which of of two owns the better resume. truly bizarre.

...

Robert, this has to do with, among other things, credibility. The individuals associated with the site in question simply have none.

[trsent]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Joel,



Again, I ask you what is wrong with the Apollo 11 photo?

What is wrong with the DiMaggio jersey?

If you are going to use these as examples to claim authentication of forgeries, then you should point out the reasons why, or name your source.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you would care to read the www.autographalert.com, I believe their agenda, as you state, is very clear.

There is nothing hidden, as they plainly state in English what their purpose is.

For all we know your source for the photos you are posting is one of the other authentication companies mentioned.

The two images posted are clearly not genuine and no one can claim they are genuine. Autograph Alert should post these two items. Maybe while they are at it they can post Steve Koshal's sale of John Wayne Gacy items that was well documented.

Sorry you and I do not see eye to eye on this one.

You really care where I found just two examples of questionable autographs that Steve Koshal has authenticated? I would like Autograph Alert to reveal these two items as they are both FAKE - Who cares who supplied me with these examples? Am I being accused of hiding something? At least when I make a post I don't hide behind a web site pretending I have nothing to do with my findings.

who cares if someone has a secret agenda, is posting from san quentin while serving a thirty year stretch, kicks the dog on a regular basis, has designs to corner the market by attacking the competition, is an all around bad guy, doesn't practice what he preaches, doesn't give mom a jingle on mother's day? so what?

either the information is true or it isn't - nothing contained in an accuser's computer dating profile matters. show me a site that offers nothing but blatant lies, false accusations, unfounded claims and worthless information and i will agree with you. but i've noticed that no one is stating that about autographalert.

heck, the references to the schmidt and bando fiascos involving spence on fox news is alone worth a visit. not because they were horribly embarrassing moments for spence and his company, but because it was a rare opportunity to watch one of these guys in action, applying their "expertise" to the task at hand. very scary.

- i mean everyone gets it, everyone understands the score over there, no one is under the impression that the place is a pillar of integrity. as such continuing to post examples of their bungled work is rather peculiar - even more peculiar are the claims that folks are "glorifying" the site. especially considering that the topic at hand has nothing to with which of of two owns the better resume. truly bizarre.

...

Robert, I am sorry - We I will also disagree with you on this one along with many others.

A criminal publicly and with their identities hidden attacking others does not make for a positive experience. Their information is often not factual and very misleading. You can like anyone calling anything questionable out all you want, but the reason for such and the background of why is really sad.

?


Then again, you are basically telling us that if criminals attack others at least the information is being offer so the public has more negative energy to work with?

When an honest person such as yourself signs his findings it is respectable. When someone hides their identity and lives their life to attack the competition, even though the competition is correct a high percentage of the time - I get tired of seeing the burning at the cross for a personal agenda that they don't even take credit for because they are so scared of the libel suits!

[sammy]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

---------------------------------------------------------

[xpress34]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

I've been reading this RANT between board members for days now, but this quote just had me thinking of a similar situation - that is relevant currently in the collecting world as well...

Jose Canseco. Admitted Roid user who names others... everyone cries foul and says - 'You can't trust him. He's just bitter and pointing the finger to take the spotlight off of himself.' Has he been proven wrong yet on ANYONE he named? No.

That said, whether you like AutographAlert or not, their information should be an eye opener about the HOBBY and the BUSINESS in General. Has ANYONE proven them wrong yet on any of their Claims? Not that I'm aware of... if they are, where are the LAWSUITS???

If guys here can PROVE who owns the board, I'm sure BIG COMPANIES like PSA/DNA, UDA, etc can do so as well and would use that to file suit - if for no other reason than to show that they STAND BEHIND THEIR OWN FINDINGS...

But GUESS WHAT? They don't... they crack and break and admit their fault - but ONLY because they have been called out.

Regardless of the background of the so called 'owner' of AutographAlert, they have cast a shadow over an industry in which they were/are involved - they had to know that it can and more than likely WILL blow back over them and their work as well.

They may not have 'crucified' their own work/findings, but they also haven't named themselves or tried to compare their work against those they have crucified themselves as being better researched or more reliable, etc so how can anyone say that this site is SELF SERVING.

PLEASE, show me ONE Post on there that raves on about how good THEIR items are or where they compare items they question from PSA/DNA, UDA, etc against their own items.

Unless they are DIRECTLY using that forum to promote their own items EXPLICITLY (Claiming that by NOT naming themselves IMPLIES they are reputable would NOT stand up in court), then HOW can you attack the forum and claim it's self serving???

I could give a---- about Steve Koshal - and if he is a Fraud, I hope he gets what's coming to him - BUT, until an item that is brought up and disputed (PUBLICLY I might add) on AutographAlert is Challenged and Defended by the ORIGINATING Authenticator, I will continue to follow the column as it is one of the BEST sources of information out there right now.

There are plenty of articles (outside of this thread) attacking AutographAlert because of it ties to Steve Koshal, but again - NONE dispute any of the findings on the site... all just a bunch of Sour Grapes because the site exposes the naivete and amatuer policies used by BIG companies to get items authenticated while trying to keep themselves protected from any liability stemming from said items sale based on THEIR 'hired guns' opinions.



I will close by offering this 'Hypothesis'... it is my opinion that it appears to me that Joel seems to think EVERYONE who defends AA most be a suck up or in cahoots with them.



WHEW!!!

Okay guys - that's my .02 on this issue - have at it and do what you will with it... I can't wait to see the responses...

- Chris