A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

[trsent]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

first, the notion that criticism lodged by autographalert lacks credibility because the author(s) have chosen not to reveal their identities is patently absurd imo - what they point out is what it is, presented to readers for their consideration. further, what can be found in the pages of autographalert, the examples they cite, can be found elsewhere as well. i suppose anonymous tip hotlines should be deemed worthless too? good grief.

secondly i don't buy this "innocent bystander" nonsense authenticators try to peddle nor do i feel they should be absolved of financial liability given the way they see fit to package their products. when looking at psa/dna letters, lampson letters and the like, i think it becomes pretty obvious why a novice collector would believe that the letter guarantees an item's authenticity. holograms, a host of signatures, reference numbers, shiny little decals, it goes on and on - heck, some of these things look as official as the declaration of independence. by design. and therein lies the rub.

what is clearly missing from all of these letters, in crystal clear language, is that they represent nothing more than an opinion, an opinion that can change, and are therefore furnished without warranty, guarantee or protection. in fact if psa/dna, lampson or anyone else out there writing these letters was really interested in honestly presenting their product, they would on each and every letter, in bold letters, state what seems to only be available by digging through their websites. especially considering that these services have this type of thing in their closet:

"Take James Spence, one of the country's foremost sports-autograph experts. When a Fox-television news affiliate in Philadelphia asked him to verify the signatures on six baseballs signed by sports greats, he gave a firm thumbs-up to one apparently signed by former Phillies third-baseman Mike Schmidt. "Very, very typical of the way he would sign," he told the station's reporter. "Good speed, good letter formation, and reflects authority and spontaneity." Informed that the station's resident graphic artist had forged Schmidt's signature the day before, Spence could only reply: "He did a fine job."

That awkward episode unfolded a few years ago, when Spence headed up an autograph-authentication unit of Collectors Universe, a big player in collectibles whose stock is traded on Nasdaq (ticker: CLCT). Though Spence has since moved on, forming his own firm, the credibility of the unit, PSA/DNA, has increasingly drawn scrutiny. It is now battling two lawsuits challenging the integrity of certain authentications it made. And the company has taken an unusual flogging in the publications of two prestigious collectors' organizations."

http://boards.collectors-society.com...te_id/1#import

...

If they can't be critized for hiding without admitting they own an autograph authentication company (maybe because it was a statement from me) then please explain this to me:

"The other autograph expert is Steve Koschal who has studied autographs since the 1960's. He has maintained one of the largest autograph reference libraries in the world and his article on autograph reference books won him a first place award by an autograph organization. He is also the author of several books as well as over 200 articles that have been published on autograph collecting. Koschal also represented the United States of America and the Federal Bureau of Investigation as their autograph expert in Federal Court for “Operation Bullpen.”"


Funny, the guy who is the registered owner of the site is the other autograph expert they mention.


They don't mention that he owns the site posting the article, they don't mention that he may have written the article. It is like me someone writing an article about themselves.

That is called an autobiography and should be attitude to the author, unless he has a hidden agenda to hide, which Chris Nerat previously discovered but the communist nation often feels if they are right with one article, they are ok in their book.

So, once again, we see support for a mysterious company attacking their competition and not signing their work. It would be as if an auction house had a private web site that picked on all the other auction houses errors, but no one knew who posted the information.

[aeneas01]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

first, the notion that criticism lodged by autographalert lacks credibility because the author(s) have chosen not to reveal their identities is patently absurd imo - what they point out is what it is, presented to readers for their consideration. further, what can be found in the pages of autographalert, the examples they cite, can be found elsewhere as well. i suppose anonymous tip hotlines should be deemed worthless too? good grief.

secondly i don't buy this "innocent bystander" nonsense authenticators try to peddle nor do i feel they should be absolved of financial liability given the way they see fit to package their products. when looking at psa/dna letters, lampson letters and the like, i think it becomes pretty obvious why a novice collector would believe that the letter guarantees an item's authenticity. holograms, a host of signatures, reference numbers, shiny little decals, it goes on and on - heck, some of these things look as official as the declaration of independence. by design. and therein lies the rub.

what is clearly missing from all of these letters, in crystal clear language, is that they represent nothing more than an opinion, an opinion that can change, and are therefore furnished without warranty, guarantee or protection. in fact if psa/dna, lampson or anyone else out there writing these letters was really interested in honestly presenting their product, they would on each and every letter, in bold letters, state what seems to only be available by digging through their websites. especially considering that these services have this type of thing in their closet:

"Take James Spence, one of the country's foremost sports-autograph experts. When a Fox-television news affiliate in Philadelphia asked him to verify the signatures on six baseballs signed by sports greats, he gave a firm thumbs-up to one apparently signed by former Phillies third-baseman Mike Schmidt. "Very, very typical of the way he would sign," he told the station's reporter. "Good speed, good letter formation, and reflects authority and spontaneity." Informed that the station's resident graphic artist had forged Schmidt's signature the day before, Spence could only reply: "He did a fine job."

That awkward episode unfolded a few years ago, when Spence headed up an autograph-authentication unit of Collectors Universe, a big player in collectibles whose stock is traded on Nasdaq (ticker: CLCT). Though Spence has since moved on, forming his own firm, the credibility of the unit, PSA/DNA, has increasingly drawn scrutiny. It is now battling two lawsuits challenging the integrity of certain authentications it made. And the company has taken an unusual flogging in the publications of two prestigious collectors' organizations."

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1125439/site_id/1#import

...

[mvandor]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

I certainly understand Sammy's point, however, he clearly implies in his opinion third party authenticators should be held liable for the full amount of the sale when they charged a relatively small amount for their service in the case. If this was done, obviously, all such services would cease to operate as going businesses. One or two large ticket items would put them into bankrupty.

Which I surmise would be just fine with Sammy and autographalert.com, but wouldn't be in the best interests of the overall autograph collecting community.

BTW, I'm interested in the one comment that the HOF'er might have spelled his name that way intentionally in his lifetime. Would love some further info on that.

[trsent]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Hey, let's kill the messenger, and forget that some unlucky person is out 29,900.00 because of these "experts" lack of expertise.

SCD sure is a good source to quote, with their total lack of creditability in all aspects of this hobby / business.

I really don't care what their agenda is, or who owns it, or if they are in the authenticating business.

Nor do I care what the agenda is of all the people on here who expose these types of things from MEARS, Grey Flannel, Mastro, Lampson, eBay, you, me, Yogi Bear, Scooby Doo, or whomever.

I just want to see this garbage exposed.

By the waytry to discredit Chris Nerat's findings about who owns the Autograph Alert site. It really shows your lack of concern for the hidden agenda of attempted anonymous web site.

Chris found public information, so because you say SCD has a lack of credibility - Tell me - Prove one word incorrect in Chris Nerat's article I quoted above when he was still working for Sports Collectors Digest.

Common - I challenge you - Find anything that was not 100% The Truth in the article since you bashed SCD's credibility to make the truth look honest.

Chris Nerat signed his work in that article, he took credit for his findings and you bashed it because it was published on SCD's web site - Please find errors with his article and publish them or don't put anything down from him or SCD over the fact that your friends from Autograph Alert have an agenda to bring the few errors their competition makes into the spotlight in an effort to help their authentication service that, as we see, did around $40.00 in authentication sales on eBay over the past two weeks!

Wow! That $40.00 makes the Autograph Alert web site worth all the money they will one day have to pay in legal fees for their slander of issues time and time again.

[trsent]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Hey, let's kill the messenger, and forget that some unlucky person is out 29,900.00 because of these "experts" lack of expertise.

SCD sure is a good source to quote, with their total lack of creditability in all aspects of this hobby / business.

I really don't care what their agenda is, or who owns it, or if they are in the authenticating business.

Nor do I care what the agenda is of all the people on here who expose these types of things from MEARS, Grey Flannel, Mastro, Lampson, eBay, you, me, Yogi Bear, Scooby Doo, or whomever.

I just want to see this garbage exposed.

Ok, so they should have a mysterious site, attacking their competition, not signing their post or their site and hiding as if they are honest, reputable people when they are not willing to even put their name on their web site.

Any issues brought up on this fine site, Game Used Universe, has the author take credit for their findings so they can be questioned and held accountable for their concerns. Your support of this site, which many have posted has an hidden agenda, is your business but every time you post about them people bring up questions about their credibility.

Look at my link above. I found they were questioning something such as an Andrew Jackson autograph in a Mastro Auction, but no one could find the item they were questioning. It was random attack with to attribution to an auction item number, auction date, or anything but a blanket statement because they just love to attack anyone who authenticates autographs who does not work for their organization.

I want a man to sign his findings and stand behind his work - Not hide their hidden agenda which is to attack any 3rd party authenticator but their own, unheard of company.

At least when PSA/DNA or JSA gives an opinion of an item - They sign their name to their work. Does Autograph Alert take the time to sign their articles or findings? Don't answer - We all know the answer - They are baiters who look to attack others in a poor effort to hopefully, one day, grow their own authentication business.

They can keep selling opinions on eBay for $7.00 each. Some people value their service. I see in the last two weeks they have sold about $40.00 in opinions on eBay alone!

If you want to expose anyone in this industry - Be a man and sign your name to your findings. Otherwise, without attributing, their findings are WORTHLESS because they do not have the balls to take credit for their work because they are hiding a hidden agenda.

End of story - Expose anything you want but take credit for your work, unless you have something to hide yourself.

[sammy]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Hey, let's kill the messenger, and forget that some unlucky person is out 29,900.00 because of these "experts" lack of expertise.

SCD sure is a good source to quote, with their total lack of creditability in all aspects of this hobby / business.

I really don't care what their agenda is, or who owns it, or if they are in the authenticating business.

Nor do I care what the agenda is of all the people on here who expose these types of things from MEARS, Grey Flannel, Mastro, Lampson, eBay, you, me, Yogi Bear, Scooby Doo, or whomever.

I just want to see this garbage exposed.

[trsent]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Very interesting, but this website's agenda is well known: drive all third party authenticators out of business.

I haven't read the whole article yet, but the websites agenda isn't to drive all 3rd party authenticators our of business. This site tells about their mishaps, while other sites only glorify them. This site is the medium balance.

I hope you're saying that THIS site (GUU) is the "medium balance", because I've been monitoring autographalert.com for years, and I assure you it is an extremist site intent on driving authenticators OUT OF BUSINESS.

I have posted time and time again - Autograph Alert is owned by people who are autograph authenticators themselves. Let me find the previous discussion about them:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=18147&highlight=autographalert.com

I forget if it was on Gavel Chat a few months ago, but that web site is a witch hunt where the owners and posters on it are just out to bash autograph authenticators. They have no balls - They do not sign their posts. They try to hide their web site's ownership as they are a hidden bash board.

Scroll down the latest news and they are whining that R&R Auctions and PSA/DNA confused Danny Kaye and Danny Thomas - Who cares? Like this was an intentional error - They are looking for trouble in the wrong places. They do not back up their claims with any proof and they just call out items and errors (and a suicide by an auction house employee) but do not sign their articles except with an AOL email address on their home page.

Here, I found the Gavel Chat article about this web site:

Thursday, June 05, 2008
Hard-hitting autograph website lacks credibilty
Posted by Chris

I recently stumbled upon a website called autographalert.com, and I must say, it really touches on some hard-hitting issues in the autograph world. The one problem I have with it, however, is that (from what I could see) there was no author's name on who wrote these articles and many of the stories use anonymous and/or one-sided sources in the stories.

For those of you who have been longtime readers of Gavel Chat, you'll know that we are big on credibility and standing behind what we write.

I did a website lookup to see who autographalert.com was registered under (considering I searched their entire site twice and couldn't even find a contact name, just a generic email address) and this was the info that I turned up:

Registrant:
Autograph Alert

PO Box 297167
Pembroke Pines, Florida 33029
United States

Registered through: Broadband National, LLC
Domain Name: AUTOGRAPHALERT.COM
Created on: 16-Mar-05
Expires on: 16-Mar-09
Last Updated on: 16-Mar-08

Administrative Contact:
Mike Frost, Steve Koschal steve@paasaa.com
Autograph Alert
PO Box 297167
Pembroke Pines, Florida 33029
United States
(561) 582-4439



Now, from what I remember, Frost and Koschal are considered autograph authenticators. I also really think there is some interesting reading on their site, but I have little respect for any entity that writes nearly all negative articles, with many anonymous and/or one-sided sources. Also, I can't respect or seriously acknowledge a story that doesn't include a byline...

Makes no sense to me. If all this information is so important to the hobby, and they stand behind it, why on earth wouldn't they want credit for their findings?

I forgot to include links yesterday that were easily found when doing research. First off, the email address for the domain registration Chris Nerat found is an email address found at: paasaa.com

This is a pretty funny web site, as it is a 3rd party autograph authenticator that I have never heard of. When you click their link to their other web site: http://www.paasautographs.com/ you find another PAAS web site.

Then, if you click on their eBay link, they have nothing for sale, but their feedback is funny: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...=p3911.c0.m198

Their eBay user id is: pro-authentication

So, what is shown here is that this 3rd party authentication company, which this week is taking a shot at James Spense Authentication for offering a $5.00 certification special, making it look such as if business is bad, is operated by the same people who have the Autograph Alert web site.

It wouldn't be as big of a concern, but they have a web site attacking PSA/DNA and JSA but they do not attribute their articles to anyone. The only contact information on the web site is a generic AOL email address.

So, until these guys grow up and admit there is competition to their service, which may not be doing well since they were selling "BABE RUTH AUTOGRAPH AUTHENTICATION SERVICES / P.A.A.S." on eBay for $29.00 their service may never make it.

So easy, run an honest business that doesn't try to succeed by tearing holes, often unproven, in their competition and maybe your company will one day succeed.

[earlywynnfan]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

The domain name is registered to the infamous Steve Koschal (Google him if you want to learn more about his background) - the same Koschal referred to in the article as the "expert" challenging the letter - as though he weren't also the site owner and maybe even the actual author of the article.[/quote]


I laugh at the time I emailed autographalert to try to get a message to Koschal. They replied back how they could try to forward the message to him, but weren't really sure how to get a hold of him. Uh, whatever, dude!

I enjoy the site and check in weekly, but do take their postings with a grain of salt.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[mvandor]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Still begs the question.

Who is responsible for refunding the 29,900.00?

--------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not looking for a balanced view. Don't find any on the PSA or JSA web sites, or web sites that promote these companies.

I am just looking to help collectors make an informed decision before they lose a lot of money.

I'm sure the person who paid 29,900.00 for that letter would have liked to have the information provided to Hunt auctions before the auction ended, or he/she paid for the fake letter.

Which begs me to ask your feelings on third party authenticators. Are they similar to the "burn 'em at the stake" mantra perpetuated at that site?

[sammy]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Still begs the question.

Who is responsible for refunding the 29,900.00?

--------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not looking for a balanced view. Don't find any on the PSA or JSA web sites, or web sites that promote these companies.

I am just looking to help collectors make an informed decision before they lose a lot of money.

I'm sure the person who paid 29,900.00 for that letter would have liked to have the information provided to Hunt auctions before the auction ended, or he/she paid for the fake letter.

[mvandor]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

I don't see why any person would object to exposing this garbage, unless that person has a monetary or business interest in the item and/or the authentication and/or auction company.

I see no problem wiith presenting balanced views, but this site does NOT even attempt to do that. Do third party authenticators make errors? Of course, and it's easy to shine spotlights on them. However, I'd be MORE interested in a balanced analysis giving us some idea of the batting average of the main companies.

THAT would provide perspective.

autographalerts.com will NEVER do that.

The domain name is registered to the infamous Steve Koschal (Google him if you want to learn more about his background) - the same Koschal referred to in the article as the "expert" challenging the letter - as though he weren't also the site owner and maybe even the actual author of the article.

[sammy]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

James Spence Authentication, LLC

Certification and authentication involves an individual judgment that is subjective and requires the exercise of professional opinion, which can change from time to time. Therefore, JSA makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to the customer for the opinion rendered by JSA on any submission.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PSA/DNA

Q: Do you guarantee that the autographs you certify are genuine and those you do not are fake?

A: No. We do not guarantee autographs under the Vintage Certified program. By using this program, you are paying for the opinion of the top experts in the world, using state-of-the-art examination tools and techniques.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, who is going to refund the 29,900.00 some unlucky person paid for this letter?

Both of the companies mentioned above will gladly refund the authentication fee, but that is all. Even though the buyer depended on the "expertise" of these self-proclaimed experts to make the purchase?

I personally applaud the guys at http://www.autographalert.com/news.html.

If their only agenda is to continuously expose these "experts" and their true lack of expertise, I say go for it.

It is better to expose this garbage, then to sweep it under the rug as these companies would like.

I don't see why any person would object to exposing this garbage, unless that person has a monetary or business interest in the item and/or the authentication and/or auction company.

[Capital-Sports]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

Im saying for autographs........I know 3rd party authenticators for autographs aren't always correct, but on the other sites I go on they get praised as being "experts" in their field, when in fact I have seen forgeries being authenticated by them.......Autographalert only states the bad things that happen with the authenticators, which I think is a good thing, because it's the same as this site, only without the 1000's of posts....and dealing with autographs, not game used.

[treant985]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

It might be noteworthy to consider that 99.99% of the time during Delahanty's lifetime, everybody spelled his name as Delehanty. I don't know if he personally spelled it that way (supposedly, it was only found out that he spelled it Delahanty after his death when his birth certificate was uncovered).

[mvandor]

Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

I haven't read the whole article yet, but the websites agenda isn't to drive all 3rd party authenticators our of business. This site tells about their mishaps, while other sites only glorify them. This site is the medium balance.

I hope you're saying that THIS site (GUU) is the "medium balance", because I've been monitoring autographalert.com for years, and I assure you it is an extremist site intent on driving authenticators OUT OF BUSINESS.