2005 Pujols game used bat

[Jonathan]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

the Psa/dna Coa Reads Used By Pujols!

[trsent]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Mr. Miracle, nice comment that I should make an offer on the bat. People like you who cannot have a debate are the reason people stop coming to this forum. If you wish to have a discussion with me, grow up or don't waste my time.

Did you ever think maybe this bat was used in a few games or at bats, but maybe it was also used in Batting Practice for many days before or afterwords?

I like the bat, it is genuine and has a great letter, if you don't want it don't poke at me because you don't like that I can debate a topic without being a complete ****

As usual. give the other side and someone has to be a complete jerk on this forum. Funny, I received an email from a big player in the hobby supporting my comments, but they wouldn't make their comments on this forum because people who are out of line have led them to only read this forum and not post here anymore. I wonder why?

[justinlm24]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

geez, when I started this thread I was just looking for info....didn't mean to get everyone all upset. I myself am not saying the bat is a fake, it is a nice bat. But if I'm going to spend that kind of money for a pujols gamer I'd rather have one that shows his attributes on the bat. No one can say for sure how many at bats the bat saw, but the fact albert doesn't use heavy pine tar tells me this was used by a player(s) other than himself. Just not what I'm looking for personally, plus it has a crack and I tend to not buy cracked bats.

[mr.miracle]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Since when did batting practice equal game used. Batting practice does not equal game use at least to me. I too never had any intention of starting this debate to the degree that it did go. What I think is kind of funny here is that this issue was originally discussed several months ago when this bat was originally on ebay. At that time if anyone cares to reference the posts, Jeff Scott said with some degree of certainty that this bat was used in 5 total at bats by Pujols in 2005. I have never said that the bat was not used by Pujols or even suggested that it was not. I simply restated what was previously stated several months prior. All I am saying Joel is that since it was listed on ebay twice apparently the majority of collectors do not agree with your assessment. Given the current market for Albert Pujols game used bats, this bat is obviously not reaching those prices because I believe most collectors want a bat that has clearly been used by a player more than five times in a season. If anyone feels that they want this bat in their collection, and feel it is worth $2000, more power to them. I choose not to but that is totally up to them. Just like the World Baseball Classic black Sam of Pujols went tonight for $3600 which in the opinion of many highly respected Pujols collectors is way too high, but if anyone likes it that much, they have that freedom to spend the dough.

Justin originally asked if anyone knew anything about this bat. I responded to the request with the link from the original discussion and added my own correspondence with the seller. Nothing new has really been added to this discussion that was not previously talked about before so what everyone is getting some uptight about is beyond me. I think though that it is fair to say that with anything no matter what type of memorabilia, it does not matter if it comes with 10 LOA's, you need to do your homework. John Taube is a great guy and I am in no way disputing his reputation. He can go only on the information that he has at hand and in this case I choose to believe with a fair level of certainty the opinion of Jeff Scott as originally expressed in regard to this bat. I am hoping that this closes the discussion. Joel, I fail to see how making a comment that you should bid on the bat is out of line? You seem to like it and if you want it in your collection that is up to you. I don't care if you or anyone chooses to buy it as that is your business. I was simply suggesting that if you think the price is fair and you like the bat buy it. If you take offense to that, it is not my problem. The beauty of this forum is that anybody can have an opinion and that does not mean that anybody is necessarily right or wrong. What I like you may not and vice versa. I choose not to add this bat to my collection, if you do great.

Thanks
Brett

[trsent]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Brett, I never commented on the price of the bat being fair, I just believe the bat is genuine and some comments may hurt the seller's attempt to sell a legitimate item. No harm, no foul.

The old debate is best made about a pitcher who wears a jersey on his off day and he sits in the dugout and then gives the jersey to his buddy, is the jersey game used?

If you say no, then how could a manager or coaches jersey ever be considered game used?

Your view may be a bat used for 200 batting practice swings and five game at-bats may not be game used, but it is since it was used in a game.

End of story, this is a legitimate bat, but no one may ever know the whole story about if anyone other than the great Albert Pujols used it. Too bad he is hurt, it will hurt his memorabilia sales for a while.

[Birdbats]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Since my name has been used a couple times in this discussion, I just want to add my two cents. First of all, I never said Albert used this bat five times in 2005. Albert used a natural Rawlings bat in five plate appearances -- I have no idea if it was this bat or another natural Rawlings.

When Albert came to the plate in Pittsburgh swinging a Rawlings bat, I took notice because he hadn't done that in more than a year. The bat looked new. When he used a natural Rawlings a few days later and the game was over (after four more plate appearances), the bat still looked pretty fresh. As noted by someone else, I watch every Pujols at-bat and record which bat he uses -- and the use of the Rawlings bat definitely stands out. Albert didn't use a Rawlings bat again in 2005 (and hasn't since).

If someone was able to determine that Bill Steele delivered bats to Albert in Pittsburgh, that's good detective work. It certainly adds up since Albert used a Rawlings bat in Pittsburgh. But to say this is "the bat" Bill delivered and to say with certainty that "Albert used it" requires a leap of faith.

Back in February, I made three points -- Albert used Rawlings just five times; the pine tar pattern is much too heavy and uncharacteristic for Pujols; and Albert gives away many bats. I even have a story on my Web site (from the 7/23/05 Post-Dispatch) about Albert giving a Rawlings bat to Aramis Ramirez. Knowing those three things, I'd be skeptical of this bat, no matter who wrote the LOA. I'm sure John Taube is a nice guy who knows much more about game-used bats than I'll ever know. But, when it comes to Pujols and his use characteristics, I doubt John is watching every Pujols at bat and taking notes.

No doubt this is a legit Pujols pro-model game bat, and that alone makes it valuable to some degree. But to state with certainty that it was used by Albert, I believe, is off base. It's tough for any bat to look this used after five plate appearances, especially if Albert is the guy using it. The use and pine tar pattern are just not consistent with use by Albert.

Jeff

http://www.birdbats.com

[Jonathan]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

HELLO JEFF,
I WOULD JUST LIKE TO HEAR YOU SAY IT IS "POSSIBLE" PUJOLS DID USE THIS BAT. IT IS POSSIBLE THE PSA/DNA IS CORRECT....
YES, THE TAR AND USE IS HEAVY - BUT THAT DOES NOT PROVE 100% PUJOLS NEVER USED THIS BAT, HE VERY WELL COULD HAVE.

AS MUCH AS I WOULD LIKE - NO ONE CAN PROVE 100% EITHER WAY ---- ALL I CAN SAY IS EXACTY WHAT IT IS, AND THATS HOW I LISTED 2005 GAME USED PSA/DNA PUJOLS BAT-

I LIKE MY BAT - IT IS ONE OF PUJOLS RARER BATS WITH PSA/DNA.

AND KNOWING IT "COULD BE" THE BAT YOU SAW HIM USE VS. PIRATES, IS VERY EXCITING TO ME. (if anyone has photo"s of that game please let me know!)

I NEVER TRIED TO DECIVE ANYONE OR DO ANYTHING WRONG I SENT SEVERAL PHOTOS TO ANYONE WHO ASKED. AND ANSWERED ALL QUESTIONS TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY.

PSA/DNA IS EXCEPTED BY ALL MAJOR AUCTION HOUSE'S AND IS WIDLY THOUGHT OF AS THE LEADER IN GAME USED CERTIFACATION - WITCH IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THE PSA/DNA, PLEASE DO NOT BUY!
BUT ALSO PLEASE DO NOT FIND A WEB FORM..... IN WITCH YOU CHOOSE TO START BADMOUTHING ME PERSONALY.

THANK YOU

[mr.miracle]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Jeff:

My sincere apologies as I misspoke here. You are right, you said that Albert used a natural Rawlings bat 5 times not necessarily this bat. I made it sound like it was this one period. I hope we can all just get along as this discussion has seemingly really raised everyone's blood pressure a few points. The bottom line, look at what we know to be true and make an informed decision based upon that info. If Mr. Jonathan the seller took offense to anything that I said or thought I was attacking him in any way, I apologize. I wanted to present what we know to be true as previously pointed out when this bat was auctioned several months ago. After that, it is obviously up to the potential buyer to decide if they want this or any item in their personal collection.

As a buyer of game used equipment, I always want a strong LOA or provence provided for my game used equipment. That being said, if I am looking at a gu Ripken jersey, whether or not it comes with LOA's from Grey Flannel, MEARS, PSA/DNA, Lampson, James Spence or anybody and everybody else, I am still going to do my homework and in this instance defer to experts on this very forum such as Howard, Mark, Dan, Andrew etc. Again, I am not saying that the LOA is no good, but sometimes, it is no good as we have all seen time and time again. With everyone wanting LOA's for everything, one must wonder if the companies that write them have the time and resources to fully investigate the background of every item they authenticate. That coupled with the fact that generally, authenticators are generalists not specialist in one specific area such as game used Ripken, McGwire etc., Mark, Dan, Howard etc. specialize in maybe a team collection or a particular player so their input is of far better insight and value to me into the details of a particular jersey of a player than perhaps the authenticators is. I know that these above mentioned forum members have saved me countless dollars that would have otherwise been wasted on phony or questionable items had I not asked and I am certainly greatful for that. A recent example is the Ripken jersey on UR auctions that has 3 or 4 LOA's which at this point are deemed essentially worthless due to the many flaws of this jersey as evidenced by several forum members. The bat may be real, it may not be it is up to the individual to decide. I would always like to have a PSA/DNA LOA from John Taube, however, I am still doing my homework on any item as should we all.

Thanks
Brett

[Birdbats]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Jonathan,

As I wrote back in February, with this particular bat, the only absolute fact is that it's a Pujols model from 2005. There is no way to know whether it was used in a major league game, a minor league game, a little league game or batting practice. There's no way of knowing whether it was used by Albert, Adam Dunn or Albert's neighbor's teenage son. Unless he came off the field and handed it to you, there's just no way to know.

I have no problem with you, Jonathan. I do have a problem with companies like PSA/DNA "blessing" items that don't measure up because lots of honest people, like you, put their trust in their LOAs. Brett is right on the mark when he says the authentication companies can't be experts in everything. As a result, many items get authenticated by these companies that niche collectors -- who have knowledge in specific areas -- would never recommend. That's the case here. The bat matches all the specs that PSA/DNA has access to... but it isn't consistent with the usage characteristics that Pujols collectors recognize.

With any authentication, you're playing the odds -- what are the odds that a particular piece was used by a particular player? Pujols used a natural Rawlings in five of 700 plate appearances, so the odds start pretty low. Add to that the heavy use and thick pine tar -- neither of which are characteristic of Albert -- and the odds lessen. And while it's great to say, "the Rawlings rep delivered this bat to Albert," it's actually pretty meaningless because players have bats given to them by bat company reps all the time. Every rep wants a famous player like Albert to use their product on television. In Albert's case, most of these bats are given away to friends and other players, and sometimes are used by them (see the "Preston Wilson using a Pujols bat" thread on the GU memorabilia board).

Your Pujols bat is a legit game bat, and it certainly has value. With perfect, signed Pujols gamers selling for as much as $4,000 and unsigned gamers selling for about $3,000, any Pujols bat is worth a lot of money. Many people would be thrilled to have your bat in their collections. What some people are taking issue with is whether it was actually used by Pujols. I believe their concerns are valid, no matter what the LOA says.

There's always the chance that Pujols did use your bat. To say there is "zero chance" would be as misguided as saying that he absolutely did use it. But, the odds are rather slim.

Jeff

http://www.birdbats.com

[Jonathan]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

HEAR IS WHAT JOHN TAUBE OF PSA/DNA HAD TO SAY!!

The bat you own is 100% authentic. Don't worry about the comments on the forum. People draw conclusions because the bat is not a familiar model for Pujols. I had questions myself which initiated the call to Bill Steele. Bill related to me the information in the LOA. FYI.....bat manufacturers are frequently sending players models to try, in the hopes that they like them and will start buying bats from the company. This is the case with your bat. Here Bill Steele actually hand delivered the bats to Albert. Obviously, Rawlings would love to have Pujols endorsing their bats. Of course there is a grey area as to when Pujols used the bat. But keeping in mind the bat was hand delivered and then modified, it is apparent the bat was given consideration.

If anyone from the forum would like to call me to discuss the bat, I would be happy to answer any questions.

Thank You,
John

[Jonathan]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

I Know Psa/dna - They Are The Best In The Biz!!
Most The Items I Have Are Psa/dna Authentic.

Birdbats, I Really Do Not Know You. None Of My Collecting Buddies Have Heard Of You. Do Not Get Me Wrong You Might Know Some Suff, But I Think I Will Stick With The Psa/dna Experts On This One. They Have Fully Examined This Bat first Person, And Have Even Done Some "detective Work" To Ensure This Bat Was Real! - You Even Admit It's Posible Pujols Used It. The Dates You Gave Me Match Perfectly With The
Provenance.....

if Anyone Out There Does Not Like My Bat, That Fine.
but It Is A Game Used Pujols Psa/dna Crtified Bat.

If Vince Malta & John Taube (psa/dna) Tell Me Its Real And Game Used By Pujols........................i Trust Them!

[otismalibu]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Do Not Get Me Wrong You Might Know Some Stuff, But I Think I Will Stick With The Psa/dna Experts On This One.

And there you have it. The power of paper. Fiat currency.

I don't collect bats. If I did, and was in the market for a Pujols, I'd most likely trust the opinion of Birdbats above most others. He documents every at bat!

That's why the big name dealers (the ones trsent always mentions) hate this site. There are "niche collectors" who have more knowledge than they do on certain items. That's just a simple fact...not bashing.

How 'bout the fellow on the old board who posted the article about the Redskins jerseys? I think he "might know some stuff" too.

Greg

[Eric]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

Jonathan-

If you don't know birdbats, you should get to know him. He has done exhaustive bat research about the Cardinals, Albert Pujols and many other topics listed for free on his website www.birdbats.com

He contributes great information to the forum and to the hobby.

Eric

[Jonathan]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

i Am Sure Psa/dna Is More Than Paper.....

Did You Say You Collect??, Heard Of Psa/dna??

I Just Really Do Not Really Know Birdbats, And It Would Be Rude To Say They Know Nothing... Im Sure They Know "some Stuff"??

psa/dna Is "known" Worldwide!
and, I Just Trust Them.

allthough There Seems To Be Alot Of People On This Form That Do Not Trust Psa/dna............ is There A Reason Why Some People Seem To Hate Psa/dna??

[Jonathan]

Re: 2005 Pujols game used bat

everyone Has Heard Of John Taube & Vince Malta Right??

you Get A Copy Vince Malta's New Book If You Subscribe To This Form! - He Certified My Bat -

I Asked Him To Post, And Await The Read.