Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

[xpress34]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

Rudy -

This article shadows the issue you are discussing:

http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=5947&universeid=314

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Stretching the Truth



Joe Orlando - November 17, 2009
This topic has been covered before but, since it has been on my mind as of late, I thought I would cover it again. When it comes to memorabilia, we are all familiar with the issue of outright forgeries and counterfeits. Part of the reason companies like PSA exist is because of this problem in the marketplace. Third party authentication services may not be the police and may not be perfect but they certainly help make the industry a safer place to buy.


In addition to the issue of forgeries that plague all collectibles markets, there is another problem that is rarely discussed but equally as sinister. It is the seller’s intent to stretch the truth when it comes to a piece that is actually authentic to begin with. I know you are probably wondering why anyone would do that. It is very simple. There can be a huge difference in value between one type of authentic item and another based on the story behind it. Greed has been, and always will be; the downfall of many in this world and our hobby is certainly not immune to it.


You could argue that this act is equally as disturbing as the act of forging something because you are tainting a collectible that was already authentic in the first place. Here’s an example, let’s say you have an authentic game-used glove. It can be of any player you choose. Let’s assume the glove is 100% authentic for the purposes of this hypothetical. The glove changes hands and is now in the possession of another hobby figure.


The new owner tries to sell the glove, not only as an authentic game-used glove, but one that was used to catch the final out in a historic game, perhaps a World Series clincher or perfect game. If that is in fact true, it is a wonderful piece but what I am finding is that more and more stories are being told about the items without the evidence to support the claim. In some cases, the sellers are stretching the truth about a piece that was fine as is but they do it so you will stretch your wallet.
Here’s another example. There is a ball signed by Babe Ruth and it is inscribed “To Joe” on the side panel. It is sold, originally, for $7,500 as a personalized Babe Ruth ball. The next seller puts it up for auction and claims the “To Joe” actually refers to Joe DiMaggio. He concocts an elaborate story and the same ball sells for $50,000 to a buyer who bought not only the ball but, more importantly, the story. There is no question that buyers need to do their homework and due diligence before spending their money but, if the truth has been stretched, it is still wrong nonetheless.



Keep in mind that there are great items that are wonderful on their own merit AND they come with great provenance or significance. They do exist but, since they are rare, the greed factor is pushing some sellers into misrepresentation. They want to make a great item even better and more appealing than it already is. Sometimes, when things get tough, people get desperate. Is the tough economy possibly playing a role? It certainly isn’t helping matters but I am sure there may be a lot of factors at work.


As a lifelong hobbyist, it is frustrating to see this occur. It not only helps devalue the truly great items in the marketplace but it also may scare off new people from collecting altogether. The reality is that there are plenty of incredible and completely authentic items to buy if you are interested in starting a collection. Sure, some items are incredibly scarce but that is no excuse for sellers to stretch the truth and ruin a good thing.

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- Chris

[genius]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

This is an interesting topic. I've often wondered whether some collectors intentionally "talk down" an item that they are interested in, in an effort to keep the prices down and competing bidders away.

[Giants00]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

Rudy and others,
I am going to agree and diagree with some of the points. First, I think sometimes we all get a bit heated (but hey what is a message board for). Doug is entitled to make money, and he is entitled to sell his own stuff at auction as long as it is disclosed. Even though i have not sold any of my stuff yet, i would hate to have someone tell me what i can or cant make from the sale based on how long i have owned something. I also believe that there are few truly bad people running around. I think we all have to be clear that people can and should make money and that we dont begrudge that.
On the other side, I am very pro-disclosure and i (and i think Rudy shares this) am not a huge fan of messing with real proven vintage jerseys to "improve" others. I think that continuing to shine a light on the imperfect disclosure here will help us dramatically improve standards for the next go around.
dan

[kingjammy24]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

dan

doug is entitled to make money. i didn't mean to imply that i was somehow stipulating what anyone can or can't make at auction. obviously that would be absurd. i was simply pointing out my confusion at how a jersey goes up over 100% in value in a little over 2 yrs. i guess anythings possible. i do begrudge someone making money when i think they've done it unethically. i think knowing your jersey has seen "semi-pro" use and not disclosing that fact is unethical.

secondly, ethnical behavior would seem to dictate that if doug wants to sell his own items in his own auction then he at least ought to disclose that. i can't find anywhere on the legendary website where the disclosure on this lot has been made. i've looked everywhere and cannot see any disclosures. i was told that the disclosures have been made in the print catalog. not sure why they wouldn't also be made online.

i did run into this though:

"We are not dealers.
Legendary Auctions is a consignment auction house. Many auctions are run by dealers offering material they own. And in addition to offering an infinitely inferior service, these auctions expose consignors to numerous unreconcilable conflicts of interest"

doug criticizes auction houses that offer material they own because of the "..numerous unreconcilable conflicts of interest". tee hee.

rudy.

[Giants00]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

I think we have exhausted the issue, but last ping. I dont believe that Doug is a bad guy or trying to do bad things. The description, well that could have been better. I think that we have to make sure that we get to full and open disclosure. What i worry about is that we end up coming down pretty hard on people here, and that after awhile we are going to drive the good out with the bad.
I do not begrudge anyone a price on anything. I have seen jerseys go 10X in 2 years. I think Doug deserves to get a great price. I also am a believer in disclosure. I think he would get a higher price with that disclosure.
I am a buyer of old flannels only and i know most of these people. We need to continue to move this thing in the right direction. If we do, it will only help all of us when we come to sell.
dan

[sammy]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

It is not the first time Doug has been caught and exposed for his unethical behavior over the years.

I see nothing in his current behavior to think this unethical behavior has changed, or will change.

Hopefully he will keep getting caught and exposed when his moral compass falters.

Keep up the good fight Rudy.

[TNTtoys]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

I also am a believer in disclosure. I think he would get a higher price with that disclosure.

No, I am sorry, I strongly disagree with this statement. The disclosure will greatly diminish the value of the item. I think there is speculation that the disclosure was intentionally left out for this purpose.

[TNTtoys]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

This is an interesting topic. I've often wondered whether some collectors intentionally "talk down" an item that they are interested in, in an effort to keep the prices down and competing bidders away.

Though I have never "talked down" an item I am interested in to keep competing bidders away, I have certainly contacted the sellers and asked them to revise their descriptions when they are blatently misleading or overly embellish an item to the point that it is what it is not. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

"I dont believe that Doug is a bad guy or trying to do bad things."

he just happened to run an auction house that closed down amidst an FBI investigation that, as the NY Daily News put it, "..focused on shill bidding, card doctoring and other allegations of fraud". i guess it depends on your definition of "bad".

"I think he would get a higher price with that disclosure."

this confuses me on 2 ends. 1 - you believe that people would pay more if they thought a jersey had been re-used through the minors than if it hadn't? this certainly goes against everything i've ever known. 2 - if you're correct and it would've gotten a higher price with that disclosure, then why didn't doug put it in? did he not want to make more money? or did he just forget? the former is nonsense so i assume you believe he just forgot. he auctioned off, as he put it, "the most significant piece in his collection" and you don't think he labored and sweated over that description? does that make any sense? if you auctioned off your holy grail, a jersey that you boasted was worth $100k, into your own auction, do you really think you would've just forgotten to mention something that would've made you more money? absurd. clearly you think doug is far dumber than i do. i believe doug didn't include it for a reason and it certainly wasn't because he forgot or wanted to make less money.

rudy.

[Giants00]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

One last. There is a ton of academic work that open markets are way more efficient and lead in the end to higher prices. The immaturity in our market is that people have not come to standards on what constitutes openness. If we had clearer standards and we had real evaluators, indeed full disclosure leads to higher prices. The art market is way past this and there have been some very controversial art pieces that have sold with the controversy for higher prices. An open and standards based market in the long benefits all.
On Doug, I think that it is really unfair to essentially accuse him of what you are without any access to his side of the story. I am not sure what good it does to label him. I am not sure how it helps anyone. If you dont want to buy from legendary, skip it.
In general, i think our goal should be things which drive transparency! I think we should avoid attacking, and I love the dialog.

[Giants00]

Re: Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

And further to add, i believe that we have a great person to evaluate jerseys in Dave Grob. We need to have a few of these folks! The more we have the better!