If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

[TriplexXxSports]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

So you didn't add the name or number or have the Bears (or their customizer) add the name and numbers for you?

One time, I bought a jersey directly from the Sixers. I asked for an Iverson and they customized a blank game jersey and sent it to me. It was not the size that Iverson wore, but it was a rookie year jersey style, attributed by the team. IMO, it was not a game-issue jersey.

Nope, the jersey was 100% as is when I originally purchased it. I did not call, or ask to have this made, nor am I 'customizing' jerseys in my basement.

[otismalibu]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

So you didn't add the name or number or have the Bears (or their customizer) add the name and numbers for you?

One time, I bought a jersey directly from the Sixers. I asked for an Iverson and they customized a blank game jersey and sent it to me. It was not the size that Iverson wore, but it was a rookie year jersey style, attributed by the team. IMO, it was not a game-issue jersey.

[TriplexXxSports]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

Lets start at the beginning - The issue of the seam

As pointed out, the Cutler in question contained a chest seam where as the jerseys that Jay can be seen wearing in game footage from this year have the shoulder seams, or 'Broncos Cut', as I've heard them called.

Yes, but what is not mentioned is that the Bears used that style all the way up to this year, which can be seen on Getty throughout the 2008 season. In 2008 the Bears used both styles. 1 made from polyester (the Broncos Cut), and one from nylon (the one with the chest seam).

Anyone who knows, or deals in Chicago Bears game jerseys know that the Bears commonly recycle jerseys from previous seasons to use in the upcoming season. Some are tagged from previous years, some are left blank a fitted with a tag for the corresponding year, and some are not even tagged at all.

When they drafted Jay, the Bears were still using the 2 different styles in their rotation. Based on game footage it is evident that so far this season they have not used the Nylon jerseys (chest seam). However, if the team was undecided which style they were going to wear before the '09 season started, why would a team who is known for recycling jerseys not make up jerseys for a player out of both sets if they have extras? If they have extras laying around, they will use what they have before they place an order for more...."Hey we have a couple extra cut jerseys from last year that Jay could wear, stitch them up so we have some extras for him...." Is that so far out of the question?

It is unknown when the decision was made to only use the "Broncos Cut" in 2009. Based on the history inside the locker room, my guess would be that it was very close to the start of the season, AFTER the 2 styles had been made and/or recycled for '09. This plays reason as to the absence of the captain's patch. If they were still undecided or if Jay didn't like that cut/size, they would decide when the season came around and adjust the jerseys that were to be used accordingly. With Jay being new, it is not out of the question to assume he was prepared jerseys of each style for him to use. No need to fit it with a patch if it was going to be an extra, used in preseason, or not at all.

The comments about the number being flipped upside down or a possible name change

The name and numbers were never altered or changed. There is no evidence that this jersey ever had a different number or nameplate. I went over the jersey inside and out both under natural light and the black light. Nothing.

The comment about the numbers being the wrong size

That is completely false. The numbers were the correct size and were compared side by side to another Chicago Bears game worn jersey. The placement was correct, the stitching was consistent between the 2 jersey, and all measurements between the 2 were spot on. The letter spacing and font on the nameplate were also correct.

Comments about being a retail, or a mock up authentic

Again, that is completely false. If you are collecting game used items and don't know the difference in the materials, threads, alterations made, numbers, etc. between a retail, authentic, and gamers, you need to give up collecting. I have been collecting for just about 7 years and have handled hundreds of each. I do know the difference, and trust me when I say that there is a BIG difference when it comes to Bears jerseys.

Comments made about deliberately pushing fakes (the Dr. J comments)

In no way shape or form did I mislead the description in that listing. I stated EXACTLY what the jersey was. I did not hide information, I did not leave 'loop holes' as I heard it called, or any such statements. I offered any and all information that I had about the jersey and even asked people to contact me for additional photos and questions.

And to knock me because I chose to collect with the possibility of profit on potential resale......come on! You collect for your reasons, I collect for mine, but that doesn't constitute cheap shots.

On the topic of misleading loop holes in terminology that is used in this hobby...

We all know that everyone has their own interpretations of Game Issued, Team Issued, Game Ready, etc. I too have my own opinion as to each term and this is the guideline I follow when describing items that are in my possession. This is taken from Jim Yackel's definitions, as well as some of my own wording based on my experiences. You may agree or disagree, but these are the guidelines I collect and sell by and I highlighted some very key points.....

GAME-WORN or GAME-USED: Any uniform (jersey, pants, socks, helmet, hat, etc.) or
equipment (shoes/cleats, gloves, towels, wrist bands, etc.) worn by a player who is on
the team's active roster, gets dressed for the game & takes his place on the field or ice
is game-worn or game-used. Even if that player is a back-up or reserve who spends the
entire game on the side, his uniform is game-worn/used because he was on the sideline,
on the active roster & in an able-bodied position to participate in on-field plays. This
applies to relief pitchers, back-up goalies, back-up quarterbacks, or any player who is
activated & dressed for the game but never spends time in actual game play.
Fortunately, most players who dress for games will participate, even if minimally. And,
most game-worn/game-used uniforms will show some evidence to that effect.

GAME-READY: Preceding the definition above, these uniforms are completely ready for
the player to use in game action, but not worn or used. These uniforms will have
received the final customization that a player may request (added or shortened length,
customized sleeves, additional hemming & alterations, etc). These uniforms will
have been part of a player's normal uniform rotation, but for one reason or another
never saw game action.

TEAM-ISSUED or GAME-ISSUED: These items may also be referred to as
PROFESSIONAL MODELS. This includes uniforms or equipment that has been ordered
by a team, delivered to the team, & intended for game use but not worn or used. These
items will have been part of the team stock, part of the equipment room inventory, but
may lack the final customizations. Examples include uniforms that have not had player's
names applied or the customization that a specific player may request, blank jerseys, or
jerseys that remain as a generic cut.

GAME-CUT or PRO-CUT: Also referred to as "AUTHENTIC", a term often used by NFL
Auctions. This refers to jerseys or uniforms that are commonly the same size or cut that
a specific player would wear & tagged in the same manner. These jerseys should not be
confused with Game-Ready, as they may or may not have received the final
customization that a specific player desires nor do these jerseys originate from a team's
equipment room. These jerseys go directly from the manufacturer to the market for
resale purposes.

Based on the guidelines that I go by, the Cutler was described appropriately. This jersey did have the alterations made to it that are consistent - the name and numbers applied, the jersey was hemmed at the tail, the sleeves were cuffed with the addition of elastic, and was fully ready for game use.

I could have very easily described this as a GAME READY jersey, but that would be falsely describing it since I cannot prove that it was ever in the teams normal uniform rotation. Again as it was pointed out Jay has not worn this style of jersey in a professional game. I can however prove that this is a CHICAGO BEARS GAME ISSUED JERSEY, and why it was listed as such. The numbers were the correct size and material. The stitching was correct, the alterations were done correctly, the placement of the letters and numbers are consistent with other known examples that I have in my possession, the jersey is the correct size as indicated by the tag, and measure up appropriately, etc. These tyoe os jersey only originate from the teams inventory stock.

With all that being said I guess I will leave it at that. Take it as you will.

[sox83cubs84]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

Dave -

I will 'break my rule' about Politics and such just this once, to say that I don't disagree with you - in fact, I fully support anyone who has an opinion and can back it up like you do when it comes to our country's politics and such...

My only issue - as I said before - is that I don't see ANY value on it permeating a SPORTS COLLECTING site...

My Baseball Collection has NOTHING to do with my Political or Religious Values and Beliefs and I don't think ANYONES Political or Religious Values and Beliefs have any thing to do with Sports Collecting or this Site in General.

As I said earlier, TOO MANY TIMES, I'll be reading a post and out of the blue there is some Politically or Religiously skewed RANT or Joke or Picture that has NOTHING to do with the original thread topic...

PLEASE, if you can, explain to me how that has ANY place on this board! My health is not as bad as yours, but I am a Disabled Vet and just got a State of Colorado rating for my shoulder that was jacked up in a Car Accident this past March, but I don't see where ANY of that has any Value or Place for me to bring it up or discuss it here.

My VERY Best Wishes for you and yours in Health and Happiness this Holiday Season...

- Chris

Chris:

To defend my comments, I'd have to launch into ANOTHER political commentary, and I don't think that's what you want to hear.

I'll let this go, and likewise will wish you joy and peace this Christmas and a quality 2010.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[nickacs]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

Does "douch" rhyme with "couch?"

[GarkoCollector]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

Yeah! Because 1 year makes a career, right?? DOUCH BAG!

Does "douch" rhyme with "couch?"

[BrewCrewSackers]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

Yeah! Because 1 year makes a career, right?? DOUCH BAG!

[tjm5711]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

I think I understand your point, however, which is that the real meaning of "game/team issued" has become devalued and twisted beyond recognition because of those who intentionally use it to misrepresent what they're selling.

Perhaps the case here !




If you altered it in your basement, it's not team issued. If the team's seamstress altered it at your request and you don't work for the team, it's not team issued. If it's a conglomeration of real jersey parts and pieces created by someone not affiliated with the team, it isn't team issued. Etc, etc.

Personally I don't get all the confusion. If the team issued it and it was never used, it's team/game issued. Otherwise, it's likely either a forgery or being misrepresented. Seems to me the real challenge is knowing whether or not it actually originated from the team in its current state.

You can't eliminate the term because a handful of scoundrels like to play dumb.[/QUOTE]


I couldn't state this any better myself !

[tjm5711]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

Triplexxx- You haven't really defended yourself. He pointed out that there was no captain's patch, but more importantly the different seams. You never gave proof to show that your jersey is issued. From all my experience in game used, game issued should be identical absent obviously use, and I can see how it may be without the captain's patch if it wasn't put on or something, but the difference in the seams seems (no pun intended) to be a pretty big issue. The pics he provided appear to back up his claim. Is there something we are missing?

"game-issued should be identical{to game used} absent obviously use."

Back to the definitions again. I also have been led to believe "game-issued" is the same thing as "game-used" minus the use. Definitely not the case here.

[skipcarayislegend]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

Why not just ask Triplexxx if it had a number and/or nameplate change? I know zilch about football jerseys but I'd guess that a number/nameplate switch would be easy to spot, no?

[spartakid]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

I would like to see the term "game/team issued" eliminated frorm this hobby

You might run into some opposition with Brian Borsch

[tjm5711]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

Well I doubt Cutler and Gould wear the same size jersey. Jay is 6'3 233 and Gould is 6' 185, that is a 3 inch, 50 pound difference. Does anyone know what size they each wear? I think that will answer the question of whether or not a Gould jersey was turned into a Cutler.

The simple fact is that this "year-size" tag 09-50 does not go with this jersey style. I have already stated that there appear to be no Bears players wearing this style in 2009. The tag was probably taken from another jersey. You couldn't leave the original "06-50"(if this is even a size 50) tag on there. Could you ? That would be too obvious !

[tjm5711]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

According to the Ebay listing:

"This is an actual game jersey directly from the Chicago Bears"

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jay-Cutler-Chicago-Bears-Game-Team-Issued-Jersey_W0QQitemZ230411690553QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_SM_Fan_Shop?hash=item35a59b6239

It's really simple. I don't seem to see any Chicago Bears players wearing this style of jersey this year. There may be a player or two wearing it. But two things are true:

1.)Jay Cutler is never sen wearing this style.
2.)Jay cutler never played for the Bears when this style was widely used !

[legaleagle92481]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

And finally to support my last opinion. Here are two pictures of Robbie Gould from 2006. These are the older style(you can tell by the seam straight across the front of the upper chest). This is the same style of the Ebay Cutler. The third picture shows our friend Mr. Cutler. See how the "6" is basically a "9" turned right side up ! Not hard to imagine what may have happened now. Is it ?

Well I doubt Cutler and Gould wear the same size jersey. Jay is 6'3 233 and Gould is 6' 185, that is a 3 inch, 50 pound difference. Does anyone know what size they each wear? I think that will answer the question of whether or not a Gould jersey was turned into a Cutler.

[skipcarayislegend]

Re: If you paid BIG $ for JO's Cutler or Sanchez

My opinion(and that's all it is) is that The Ebay Cutler jersey is a game-issued jersey from 2006,07,or 08. Maybe the number "9" was simply turned over to make a six. The name plate was changed to that of "Cutler" and presto you have what appears to be a.................. Well we're not even sure what tis is supposed to be !

If you're correct and those alterations were not made by or on behalf of the team, it's a forgery, assuming I'm being told that it originated from the Bears in its current condition. Never mind that it started out as an authentic team issued jersey. The alterations, if made by someone outside the Bears equipment room, negate the "issued" part, imo.