Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

[Kabron1971]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

Yes, you got it; his expertise is coin operated machines and juke boxes.
The authenticator was not only completely out of his field of expertise with this item, but managed to authenticate it by photos of it only.

No idea why he's looking at game used jerseys, but he most certainly gave himself an out by stating that it's "probably authentic" in caps.

Next to "Provenance", he indicates "No idea."

And my personal favorite is where he stated "it would help if you have a reputable dealer look at this in person."

WOW!!! The experts are smiling.....

[Kabron1971]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

If you are still interested in doing some digging...
Vintage Authentics sold a Fernando Valenzuela 1984 Game Used Jersey GU8.5 in their July 2007 auction (it went for 1000 and change)

I tried to dig up the auction listing but didnt have any luck...I remember because I was bidding on it...and if memory serves, i think it was a size 43?!?

If you still want to check it out still, I would try emailing V.A., Im sure they will send you a pic of the original listing.

I believe the V.A. was for a home jersey, but perhaps you can take SOME things away from it...same year if nothing else.

ant

THANK YOU!!!!!!!

[TNTtoys]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

Umm, this was appraised/authenticated by a Pinball machine expert? Hmm.

Yes, you got it; his expertise is coin operated machines and juke boxes.
The authenticator was not only completely out of his field of expertise with this item, but managed to authenticate it by photos of it only.

No idea why he's looking at game used jerseys, but he most certainly gave himself an out by stating that it's "probably authentic" in caps.

Next to "Provenance", he indicates "No idea."

And my personal favorite is where he stated "it would help if you have a reputable dealer look at this in person."

[Rob L]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

Hi guys! Check this out!!!

http://whatsitworthtoyou.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=appraisal.certificate&item_id=203667

http://s772.photobucket.com/albums/yy1/lakermaniac1971/LA%20Dodgers%20Gamers/

The size 43 issue was given light by Zanebats-a respected Dodger gamer collector and Ebay seller. Probably, he's a member here too.....He said that the size 43 was fine. He checked it with several people.....

Thanks a lot!!!!!

Umm, this was appraised/authenticated by a Pinball machine expert? Hmm.

[apfriz]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

If you are still interested in doing some digging...
Vintage Authentics sold a Fernando Valenzuela 1984 Game Used Jersey GU8.5 in their July 2007 auction (it went for 1000 and change)

I tried to dig up the auction listing but didnt have any luck...I remember because I was bidding on it...and if memory serves, i think it was a size 43?!?

If you still want to check it out still, I would try emailing V.A., Im sure they will send you a pic of the original listing.

I believe the V.A. was for a home jersey, but perhaps you can take SOME things away from it...same year if nothing else.

ant

[Kabron1971]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

The appraisal says:
The expert, Mickey Treat, is of the opinion that this item IS PROBABLY authentic.

That is what everyone here said. The problem is as TNT found out that G&S produced several jerseys of star players that would fit that description. It is definitely "authentic" no one questioned that. The issue is that there is no way to really prove it is game used or even game issued to Valenzuela. I emailed the seller about the use of his jerseys and he stated that he used to wear them. The Hernandez had stains from a party that he attended. How can you photomatch a jersey for use on the field when some guy has been wearing them for 20 years and getting stains on them at parties?? How can any G&S jersey ever really be "authenticated" as game used unless the player itself is somehow linked to the jersey?? (That also goes for any jersey not just G&S.) I'm not trying to piss on on your Cherios, I am just pointing out the concerns people on this board had with the seller and his jerseys. If that "opinion" made you feel better, you need to think again.

Come on Buddy, I will not be a hypocrite. But it indeed made me feel better. You already said it by yourself, that there's no way to prove that this is a gamer or not. Unless you contact the former Equipment Manager of the LA Dodgers in the 80's Mr. Nobe Kawano. The Goodman & Sons mass produced stuffs wasn't even proven too. Now, let me ask you? If you are in my position, wouldn't that make you feel good too?

Try to observe the Steve Garvey that is for auction at Huggins and Scott.com

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=19781&catid=233&lotno=217

Please observe the tags???? Isn't that this tag is for Goodman and Sons 1985 and up to 1990's? Steve Garvey left the Dodgers in 1983. Yet it has an LOA that it's a 1982 GAmer. So you are right, that it is quite impossible to know if it was indeed game worn or issued.....

As for the case of the Valenzuela....you will never find anything like this anymore. Now, come to think of it, if and ever El Toro enters the HOF, or if ever he signs this jersey with a picture of him actually signing it, that's another story buddy..

I will definitely send this to a respected Authenticator to look on this matter....Thanks buddy.

[jtorrez]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

Hi guys! Check this out!!!

http://whatsitworthtoyou.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=appraisal.certificate&item_id=203667

http://s772.photobucket.com/albums/yy1/lakermaniac1971/LA%20Dodgers%20Gamers/

The size 43 issue was given light by Zanebats-a respected Dodger gamer collector and Ebay seller. Probably, he's a member here too.....He said that the size 43 was fine. He checked it with several people.....

Thanks a lot!!!!!

The appraisal says:
The expert, Mickey Treat, is of the opinion that this item IS PROBABLY authentic.

That is what everyone here said. The problem is as TNT found out that G&S produced several jerseys of star players that would fit that description. It is definitely "authentic" no one questioned that. The issue is that there is no way to really prove it is game used or even game issued to Valenzuela. I emailed the seller about the use of his jerseys and he stated that he used to wear them. The Hernandez had stains from a party that he attended. How can you photomatch a jersey for use on the field when some guy has been wearing them for 20 years and getting stains on them at parties?? How can any G&S jersey ever really be "authenticated" as game used unless the player itself is somehow linked to the jersey?? (That also goes for any jersey not just G&S.) I'm not trying to piss on on your Cherios, I am just pointing out the concerns people on this board had with the seller and his jerseys. If that "opinion" made you feel better, you need to think again.

[Kabron1971]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

Hi guys! Check this out!!!

http://whatsitworthtoyou.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=appraisal.certificate&item_id=203667

http://s772.photobucket.com/albums/yy1/lakermaniac1971/LA%20Dodgers%20Gamers/

The size 43 issue was given light by Zanebats-a respected Dodger gamer collector and Ebay seller. Probably, he's a member here too.....He said that the size 43 was fine. He checked it with several people.....

Thanks a lot!!!!!

[TNTtoys]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

I definetely appreciate your teaching of how to disprove background information. You basically can discover if the person is dishonest or misinformed without even looking at the product.

Just two things here.

I actually delved into the background minutia here because bits and pieces were provided to me (and other prospective buyers). In the absence of actual documentation, sometimes a story can help. In this case it unfortunately didn't.
I would best compare what I did here to a scenario such as... Seller lists a game used cap on ebay with no LOA. States that the cap was acquired after a specific game. I then go through various published photos of the game itself to try to piece it together. I check to see that the team wore that style cap on that day... maybe there is a photo of that player wearing the cap... maybe there is a specific mark on the cap that I can distinguish.

I also like to believe "misinformed" over "dishonest." Suppose the jersey is in fact one of the mass-produced Goodmans. The ebay seller may not have known that at the time and still might not. It could have been sold to him 20+ years ago as "the real deal." This hobby was far from regulated; it still is not in my opinion. What we could be looking at here is a seller who honestly believes he owns game used jerseys of these superstars and has simply forgotten the year in which he bought them.

This type of thing happens all of the time, and are usually honest mistakes. For example, there is an ebay seller right now who has for sale a 1990 Darryl Strawberry Scoreboard promotional jersey. We all know that it's not worth any more than $100.00, but the seller thinks he has a geniune gamer. He has it listed at 11X this amount. Why? Because he bought it for $500+ on ebay recently, thinks it is genuine, and now thinks he's going to flip it and turn a profit. But in reality, he made a couple of honest mistakes. If there were dishonest intentions here, I am sure this guy would not have spent $500+ on a promotional $100 dollar jersey.

[LA_1968]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

Charles,

Unfortunately the hem is not the only thing inconsistent with the Keith Hernandez jersey. I find the seller's story on how he acquired it inconsistent too. Worrysome to say the least for a jersey with no paperwork and a seller with no reputation.
Nick

I was just having fun trying to get the physical characteristics to check out or not. I thought it was strange how he never showed the bottom third of any of his jerseys and then I stumbled on the shot of the tag revealing a difference of the Hernandez.

I definetely appreciate your teaching of how to disprove background information. You basically can discover if the person is dishonest or misinformed without even looking at the product. It is also key to have the lowdown on weather mass produced replicas were made of certain things... this is something that only comes with time and being in the loop.

In learning about gu collecting I find a couple things interesting. Too much hype on descriptions seems to make me skeptical and it usually turns out to be justified. The other thing is that these thousand dollar plus items so many times have photos taken with camera phones. Even on big auction houses. I wish the big houses would set the standard of photo quality higher to make it harder for people who want to pass off something.

LA how do we know for sure that the jersey Robert Edward Auction is legit.
It looks like Goodman made a boat load of these jerseys and anyone could of doctored the jersey to look legit.
Thanks

Yeah... I thought about that but I'd rather take the Mears word over the newbee seller on ebay who "guarantees" money back. You're right though, either Hernandez could be real or fake. Thanks for calling the Fernando to our attentions so someone like me could practice on it and learn. Sometimes I get the idea people don't want to "out" a product on here in order to save money. That strategy has it's pros if you know what you're doing.



Charles

[platinum1]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

Now I know why I love this site.
Because you get people that actually want to help.
Thank You everbody that has helped.
LA how do we know for sure that the jersey Robert Edward Auction is legit.
It looks like Goodman made a boat load of these jerseys and anyone could of doctored the jersey to look legit.
At this time Im going to pass on the Valenzuela and save my money.
Thanks

[TNTtoys]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

I was looking at the guy's other 3 items... The Keith Hernandez looked really good against an REA Mears A10:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/1406.html

Except you can't see the hem in the auction jersey:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Authentic-game-worn-1986-K-Hernandez-Mets-road-jersey_W0QQitemZ270534637483QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efd1ef7ab

Charles,

Unfortunately the hem is not the only thing inconsistent with the Keith Hernandez jersey. I find the seller's story on how he acquired it inconsistent too. Worrysome to say the least for a jersey with no paperwork and a seller with no reputation.

On the actual auction listing, the seller appended the answer to a question he was asked -- how was it obtained. He responded that he bought it approximately 23 years ago at the national sports convention. That dates the convention at either 1986 (potentially too early given the Mets were wearing these on field at the time) or 1987.

Given Tom Duino's diatribe about mass-produced road gray Goodman & Sons jerseys of star players circa 1982-1986 that were identical in every way to real gamers and included Mets jerseys (which is just about as big a red flag as it gets -- let's not forget that his feedback is "1"), I asked the seller a little more about where he bought the jersey. He mentioned the convention, but this time, he gave the location - downtown L.A. Trouble is, the NSCC was not in LA at all during this timeframe. 1986: Arlington TX, 1987: Atlantic City NJ, 1988: San Francisco, 1989: Chicago.

Did he buy the jersey elsewhere? Are his recollection of the dates wrong? Possibly. But those questions, Tom's post, the lack of feedback, the fact that the jersey has no paperwork, and the fact that the jersey was started at such a ridiculously low price had me wondering.

So... I will not be bidding. This jersey is going to turn out to be either one of those mass-produced Goodmans or a "steal" from someone who has not shied away from bidding due to all of the apparent red flags. Hoping for the future buyer , it is what it is purported to be, because from the looks of things, it will sell for a lot of money! I for one am not that big a gambler.

Nick

[LA_1968]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

What did you think of the Keith Hernandez jersey?

I was looking at the guy's other 3 items... The Keith Hernandez looked really good against an REA Mears A10:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/1406.html

Except you can't see the hem in the auction jersey:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Authentic-game-worn-1986-K-Hernandez-Mets-road-jersey_W0QQitemZ270534637483QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efd1ef7ab

Like I said, this doesn't have much to do with the Fernando but I do see an inconsistency in this other one while the rest of it looks pretty darn good to me.

That 3k Fernando has been on ebay for at least a month from my memory.

Charles

[metsbats]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

The $3,000 1983 Fernando Valenzuela jersey has 1985-1990 Goodman tagging. This info is from Bill Henderson's Jersey guide, and also is the same info Rudy passed along to me a few years ago. Hope this helps.

Dave
Always looking for Eric Davis Gamers

Dave

Thanks for posting this info.

[sox83cubs84]

Re: Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

I don't think I have ever seen an odd size on a Rawlings either. I have seen it on Majestic and Goodman jerseys.

I haven't seen them on the older red Rawlings tags, but I had in my collection many moons ago a 1990 road Cubs Derrick May which was tagged a size 45. Other than that, the only odd sizes I've seen on Rawlings gamers were in embroidered strip tags, a couple of times on mid 1970s Mets jerseys, either as a size itself (41) or in a range (40/41).

Dave M.
Chicago area