This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

[aeneas01]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

To me, a huge difference with MEARS versus others is MEARS' money back guarantee. As I understand it, if you buy something MEARS provided their opinion on, and they are determined to be wrong in their evaluation, MEARS will buy the item back from you for what you paid for it.

i believe all auction houses will refund a buyer's money if a buyer can provide indisputable proof a mistake was made - for example, if a helmet's date stamp was overlooked by the auction house (or their authenticator) but later discovered by the buyer and determined to be a date stamp that reflected a time after the player had retired.

but, to be clear, no auction house (including mears), offers a "no questions asked" money back guarantee - mears, like every other auction house, will require the buyer to supply proof that meets their (the auction house's) complete satisfaction. and, in most cases, good luck with that.

...

[DonFan23]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

I personally don't understand how a batboy from The White Sox would get batting gloves from members of the other team unless they asked for them or traded them with the other team's batboys since I assume The Braves have their own batboys taking care of their own players gloves. I know it happens, but how I have never known.

Quite often the visiting team's batboys are simply home team batboys who suit up in unis provided by the visiting teams so they don't stand out. Also, as Joel points out, I've heard of batboys/clubbies trading with counterparts from other teams, so that's also not an improbable scenario either.

[emann]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

Emann,
Excellent post by you. I think it is a valid concern and benefited both Mears and the collector by bringing up the issue. I too believe Mears would have been better served if they added this provenance information to the LOO. The LOO as is was very vague and would have low buyer confidence from serious collectors.

I am glad Troy addressed this concern.

Thanks Joel.

I was also impressed by Troy's handling of the situation. In no way do I think this was MEARS trying to put one over on anybody. As you basically said, without the story that Troy told to back it up, the LOA is simply too vague and the item too generic for most collectors to feel comfortable with. Just trying to point that out for the benefit of the hobby...

[karamaxjoe]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

Also, I don't remember the exact era of this, but I do remember that White Sox batboys were often "Bat Gentlemen" as for a long time they were older men at least into the 1980's if not later.

Joel,

Welcome back! It appears not many of the oldtimers are still hanging around this forum.

Do you remember the batboy Poppy Hidalgo who had to be in his thirties before the Sox finally got rid of him? I've got some Sox batboy jerseys and they are all size 46 or more.

[trsent]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

I don't think Joel or anyone is accussing Troy of lying i think they are accussing the bat boy of lying.

I don't think anyone thought Troy was lying from any discussion. I don't think anyone said this particular batboy was lying either. From my history buying items over the years, I find generally when a batboy comes in with sealed baggies with names on them, these were from their personal collection and odds of them being inaccurate are very slim if they were a real batboy.

Also, I don't remember the exact era of this, but I do remember that White Sox batboys were often "Bat Gentlemen" as for a long time they were older men at least into the 1980's if not later.

I don't know either the time frame. If I knew the timeframe the source was a White Sox batboy, my opinion of what the gloves are would change.

If in 2000s then its a BP batting glove from the June 11-13, 2004 series in Chicago. I am assuming batboys responsibility of caring for away players equipment and Chipper saves customized glove for actual games and uses the cheapos in BP.

If in the early 1990s, more likely Spring Training batting gloves, assuming the White Sox batboy goes to Spring Training and is responsible for caring for away players equipment.

Joel, I believe all Florida teams play each other in Spring Training as do all Arizona teams. They are not set into leagues or groups. At the end of this discussion, the glove is now back in the possession of MEARS and its owner is confident of where it came from.

I personally don't understand how a batboy from The White Sox would get batting gloves from members of the other team unless they asked for them or traded them with the other team's batboys since I assume The Braves have their own batboys taking care of their own players gloves. I know it happens, but how I have never known.

[joelsabi]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

Well, I don't know the complete time frame of when these gloves are attributed, but the White Sox used to play in Sarasota, Florida:

I don't know either the time frame. If I knew the timeframe the source was a White Sox batboy, my opinion of what the gloves are would change.

If in 2000s then its a BP batting glove from the June 11-13, 2004 series in Chicago. I am assuming batboys responsibility of caring for away players equipment and Chipper saves customized glove for actual games and uses the cheapos in BP.

If in the early 1990s, more likely Spring Training batting gloves, assuming the White Sox batboy goes to Spring Training and is responsible for caring for away players equipment.

[joelsabi]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

Well, I don't know the complete time frame of when these gloves are attributed, but the White Sox used to play in Sarasota, Florida:

"The Chicago White Sox have held spring training in Excelsior Springs, Mo. (1901-1902); Mobile (1903); Marlin Springs, Texas (1904); New Orleans (1905-1906); Mexico City (1907); Los Angeles (1908); San Francisco (1909-1910); Mineral Wells, Texas (1911, 1916-1919); Waco, Texas (1912, 1920); Paso Robles, Cal. (1913-1915); Waxahachie, Texas (1921); Seguin, Texas (1922-1923); Winter Haven, Fla. (1924); Shreveport, La. (1925-1928); Dallas (1929); San Antonio (1930-1932); Pasadena, Cal. (1933-1942, 1946-1950); French Lick, Ind. (1943-1944); Terre Haute, Ind. (1945); Palm Springs, Cal. (1951); El Centro, Cal. (1952-1953); Tampa (1954-1959); Sarasota (1960-1997); Tucson (1998-2008); Glendale, Az. (2009-present). "

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/...-white-sox.htm

Chipper Jones has been with The Braves since 1993 from: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...onesch06.shtml

The Braves have had Spring Training in Florida for long enough:

"The Atlanta Braves have trained at the following sites since the team's entry in the National League as the Boston Beaneaters: Norfolk, Va. (1901); Thomasville, Ga. (1902-1904, 1907); Charleston, S.C. (1905); Jacksonville (1906); Augusta, Ga. (1908-1912); Athens, Ga. (1913); Macon, Ga. (1914-1915); Miami (1916-1918), Columbus, Ga. (1919-1920); Galveston, Texas (1921); St. Petersburg (1922-1937); Bradenton (1938-1940, 1948-1962); San Antonio (1941); Sanford, Fla. (1942); Wallingford, Ct. (1943-1944); Washington, D.C. (1945); Fort Lauderdale (1946-1947); West Palm Beach (1963-1997); Orlando (1998-present)."

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/...nta-braves.htm

So you could have the years 1993-1997 that The White Sox played The Braves in Florida.

That research took me about a minute to find, and about five minutes to copy over and post.

At the end of the day, the letter is vague but MEARS believes in their source, and unlike a random eBay seller, when Troy Kinunen states that he bought a collection from a ball boy (or an amazing autograph collection he had from a clubhouse attendant) generally he is dealing with the source he claims as he doesn't deal with make believe characters. This comment is based my past experiences dealing with him for over fifteen years now.

Joel,

Thanks for the spring training reference link. This actually makes more sense to me that the generic glove comes from this time period of 1993-1997, when custom gloves were less common. Chipper is early in his career and had not yet started to use customized gloves.

I believe in Troy's source and that's why I used this parameter of possible games that the Braves and White Sox played. It panned out these glove probably were never used in an official major league game but were more likely used in a Spring Training game in Florida early in his career.

If anyone has a source that would show West Palm Beach (1963-1997) and Orlando (1998-present) playing or being in the same league let me know.

I stand corrected. I was thinking of All-Star game in Comisky or batting practice without the information you provided, so my search was not complete and thorough but it shows the mindset of what a collector should do for himself to verify the story of provenance.

Would this information be useful of a COO? I think it would bring more buyer confidence to show the timeframe that this glove could have been used and the provenance coming from the White Sox batboy.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

Well, I don't know the complete time frame of when these gloves are attributed, but the White Sox used to play in Sarasota, Florida:

"The Chicago White Sox have held spring training in Excelsior Springs, Mo. (1901-1902); Mobile (1903); Marlin Springs, Texas (1904); New Orleans (1905-1906); Mexico City (1907); Los Angeles (1908); San Francisco (1909-1910); Mineral Wells, Texas (1911, 1916-1919); Waco, Texas (1912, 1920); Paso Robles, Cal. (1913-1915); Waxahachie, Texas (1921); Seguin, Texas (1922-1923); Winter Haven, Fla. (1924); Shreveport, La. (1925-1928); Dallas (1929); San Antonio (1930-1932); Pasadena, Cal. (1933-1942, 1946-1950); French Lick, Ind. (1943-1944); Terre Haute, Ind. (1945); Palm Springs, Cal. (1951); El Centro, Cal. (1952-1953); Tampa (1954-1959); Sarasota (1960-1997); Tucson (1998-2008); Glendale, Az. (2009-present). "

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/...-white-sox.htm

Chipper Jones has been with The Braves since 1993 from: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...onesch06.shtml

The Braves have had Spring Training in Florida for long enough:

"The Atlanta Braves have trained at the following sites since the team's entry in the National League as the Boston Beaneaters: Norfolk, Va. (1901); Thomasville, Ga. (1902-1904, 1907); Charleston, S.C. (1905); Jacksonville (1906); Augusta, Ga. (1908-1912); Athens, Ga. (1913); Macon, Ga. (1914-1915); Miami (1916-1918), Columbus, Ga. (1919-1920); Galveston, Texas (1921); St. Petersburg (1922-1937); Bradenton (1938-1940, 1948-1962); San Antonio (1941); Sanford, Fla. (1942); Wallingford, Ct. (1943-1944); Washington, D.C. (1945); Fort Lauderdale (1946-1947); West Palm Beach (1963-1997); Orlando (1998-present)."

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/...nta-braves.htm

So you could have the years 1993-1997 that The White Sox played The Braves in Florida.

That research took me about a minute to find, and about five minutes to copy over and post.

At the end of the day, the letter is vague but MEARS believes in their source, and unlike a random eBay seller, when Troy Kinunen states that he bought a collection from a ball boy (or an amazing autograph collection he had from a clubhouse attendant) generally he is dealing with the source he claims as he doesn't deal with make believe characters. This comment is based my past experiences dealing with him for over fifteen years now.

I don't think Joel or anyone is accussing Troy of lying i think they are accussing the bat boy of lying.

[trsent]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

I just checked on whether the Sox and Brave would play ST games and they play in different leagues -- Braves (Citrus in Florida) and White Sox (Cactus in Arizona). So I doubt the White Sox ballboy was saving Chipper's glove in Spring Training.

Well, I don't know the complete time frame of when these gloves are attributed, but the White Sox used to play in Sarasota, Florida:

"The Chicago White Sox have held spring training in Excelsior Springs, Mo. (1901-1902); Mobile (1903); Marlin Springs, Texas (1904); New Orleans (1905-1906); Mexico City (1907); Los Angeles (1908); San Francisco (1909-1910); Mineral Wells, Texas (1911, 1916-1919); Waco, Texas (1912, 1920); Paso Robles, Cal. (1913-1915); Waxahachie, Texas (1921); Seguin, Texas (1922-1923); Winter Haven, Fla. (1924); Shreveport, La. (1925-1928); Dallas (1929); San Antonio (1930-1932); Pasadena, Cal. (1933-1942, 1946-1950); French Lick, Ind. (1943-1944); Terre Haute, Ind. (1945); Palm Springs, Cal. (1951); El Centro, Cal. (1952-1953); Tampa (1954-1959); Sarasota (1960-1997); Tucson (1998-2008); Glendale, Az. (2009-present). "

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/...-white-sox.htm

Chipper Jones has been with The Braves since 1993 from: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...onesch06.shtml

The Braves have had Spring Training in Florida for long enough:

"The Atlanta Braves have trained at the following sites since the team's entry in the National League as the Boston Beaneaters: Norfolk, Va. (1901); Thomasville, Ga. (1902-1904, 1907); Charleston, S.C. (1905); Jacksonville (1906); Augusta, Ga. (1908-1912); Athens, Ga. (1913); Macon, Ga. (1914-1915); Miami (1916-1918), Columbus, Ga. (1919-1920); Galveston, Texas (1921); St. Petersburg (1922-1937); Bradenton (1938-1940, 1948-1962); San Antonio (1941); Sanford, Fla. (1942); Wallingford, Ct. (1943-1944); Washington, D.C. (1945); Fort Lauderdale (1946-1947); West Palm Beach (1963-1997); Orlando (1998-present)."

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/...nta-braves.htm

So you could have the years 1993-1997 that The White Sox played The Braves in Florida.

That research took me about a minute to find, and about five minutes to copy over and post.

At the end of the day, the letter is vague but MEARS believes in their source, and unlike a random eBay seller, when Troy Kinunen states that he bought a collection from a ball boy (or an amazing autograph collection he had from a clubhouse attendant) generally he is dealing with the source he claims as he doesn't deal with make believe characters. This comment is based my past experiences dealing with him for over fifteen years now.

[joelsabi]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

Based on the source being a White Sox ballboy, I looked up the dates that the Braves played the White Sox. Narrowed to 6 games.

June 21-23, 2002 and June 11-13, 2004

Found one photo of Chipper on June 13,2004 in Gettys. Chipper wore customized Mizunos on that day and pretty much the same type of glove in 2002 and 2004. By this stage in his career Chipper was using customized gloves.

If anything they were used in BP. I doubt they were used in any of the 6 career games Chipper played against the White Sox but that just my opinion. Other possibility is a game during ST which would be tough to research.

Research time: 10 minutes. Using retrosheet.org and gettyimages.

I just checked on whether the Sox and Brave would play ST games and they play in different leagues -- Braves (Citrus in Florida) and White Sox (Cactus in Arizona). So I doubt the White Sox ballboy was saving Chipper's glove in Spring Training.

[Lokee]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

my focus was on actual major league games.

i would have taken your research route as prerookie or rookie era gloves but im not motivated to search further.

Research is fun when it's your item that is for sure.

[joelsabi]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

LMAO

my focus was on actual major league games.

i would have taken your research route as prerookie or rookie era gloves but im not motivated to search further.

[Lokee]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

Research time: 10 minutes. Using retrosheet.org and gettyimages.

LMAO

[joelsabi]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

Based on the source being a White Sox ballboy, I looked up the dates that the Braves played the White Sox. Narrowed to 6 games.

June 21-23, 2002 and June 11-13, 2004

Found one photo of Chipper on June 13,2004 in Gettys. Chipper wore customized Mizunos on that day and pretty much the same type of glove in 2002 and 2004. By this stage in his career Chipper was using customized gloves.

If anything they were used in BP. I doubt they were used in any of the 6 career games Chipper played against the White Sox but that just my opinion. Other possibility is a game during ST which would be tough to research.

Research time: 10 minutes. Using retrosheet.org and gettyimages.

[Lokee]

Re: This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

I actually did do some research. I looked on Getty Images and saw nothing from the mid 90's onward to show Franklin gloves. I didn't turn into Magnum PI over it but I do have a life unlike some people who have all the time it seems to do extensive research.

REAL extensive took me 5 mins.