Vintage Authentics Current Auction

[clinton2828]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

matt,
i think you mean well but you have to be careful when calling jerseys out;

here are pics from the game showing them wearing the same jersey

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/1441361502077327267NQQeJM

[sylbry]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

Stay away from the Mauer Jersey as well... it has all the right patches (despite the fact it looks like my 4 year old sewed on the year)

The jersey simply does not match up to any photos of Mauer in 2006

nice fake

I agree. The nameplate does not exhibit the factory stitching and has clearly been altered. It appears to have been removed and resewn.

The Thome is junk too. I warned about it last time it VA listed it. Search for the thread if curious.

[1929tudor]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

I was looking at both Thome jerseys what do you think is wrong with them to not be real. I don't know about jerseys so just curious as I might have bid

[Falcon]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

Any opinions on the 2 Vick jerseys?

[mattmueller]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

matt,
i think you mean well but you have to be careful when calling jerseys out;

here are pics from the game showing them wearing the same jersey

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...77327267NQQeJM

First, let me agree that I should be more careful when posting. My above post, particularly the middle paragraph, was quickly put together by dropping in a cut and paste from an email I had sent on the subject, was absent the mention of game use by Hill in two areas, and probably most important I did an overall horrible job of reading it to make sure it actually voiced my concerns accurately. I am somewhat embarrassed by the final wording and I have asked the moderators to remove the post.

I will take my time expressing my concerns this time and not try to be too cute with the wording.

The description of the lot reads: "This lot features a full Wisconsin Badgers home uniform as well as a pair of Adidas cleats used by former star running back PJ Hill. The uniform has been washed and shows light use."

A quick read of this description, when combined with the fact that it is listed in the Game Used / Jerseys section of an auction, may leave a reasonable person with the impression that the offered uniform and cleats were worn by PJ Hill during a game with the Badgers. However, a more careful read of the sentence and wording used, you may note that the sentence is broken in two parts, ~offered is a Wisconsin Badger uniform (true statement as it is a full Badger uniform, but note that it does not say the Badger uniform was worn in a game by PJ Hill), and ~cleats used by PJ Hill. Unlike my prior post, perhaps this listing used very careful wording.

Why is this important? First, because the Badgers, like many teams, tend to dress a significant number of players during home games. Like many other teams this means that there are double numbers used. PJ Hill wore #39 throughout his time with UW. But, in 2005 #39 was also worn by Sheboygan native Brian Herman. The post above from SI notes that #39 was also apparently used by a linebacker named Brian Sell. So there could have been three players on the sidelines wearing #39 jerseys during this game.

So to the most important point in whether or not the jersey was worn in a game by PJ Hill. PJ Hill was redshirted in 2005. This is the key point I did a miserable job of articulating in the first post. UW didn't wear these jerseys in 2006 - 2008, PJ Hill's time with Badgers as an active player. Redshirt players do dress for the games, so he could have worn the jersey (or Herman, or Sell), but it was not likely to have been used in the game - particularly by PJ Hill.

So to summarize my points:
- This jersey has been listed, received bids, only to appear in future auctions. Apparently the bids received are not meeting the reserve price.
- These are great jerseys, I believe a member of the forum has Brian Calhoun's uniform and perhaps helmet from his record setting performance from this game. So if in fact Vintage did carefully craft the wording of the listing to make it appear that this is a game used PJ Hill uniform, why? Would an accurate description of an authentic throwback UW uniform bring in that much less interest?
- Buyer beware, listings are not always what they appear to be.
- I promise to be more careful and articulate in all future posts.

Matt

[carct]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

First, let me agree that I should be more careful when posting. My above post, particularly the middle paragraph, was quickly put together by dropping in a cut and paste from an email I had sent on the subject, was absent the mention of game use by Hill in two areas, and probably most important I did an overall horrible job of reading it to make sure it actually voiced my concerns accurately. I am somewhat embarrassed by the final wording and I have asked the moderators to remove the post.

I will take my time expressing my concerns this time and not try to be too cute with the wording.

The description of the lot reads: "This lot features a full Wisconsin Badgers home uniform as well as a pair of Adidas cleats used by former star running back PJ Hill. The uniform has been washed and shows light use."

A quick read of this description, when combined with the fact that it is listed in the Game Used / Jerseys section of an auction, may leave a reasonable person with the impression that the offered uniform and cleats were worn by PJ Hill during a game with the Badgers. However, a more careful read of the sentence and wording used, you may note that the sentence is broken in two parts, ~offered is a Wisconsin Badger uniform (true statement as it is a full Badger uniform, but note that it does not say the Badger uniform was worn in a game by PJ Hill), and ~cleats used by PJ Hill. Unlike my prior post, perhaps this listing used very careful wording.

Why is this important? First, because the Badgers, like many teams, tend to dress a significant number of players during home games. Like many other teams this means that there are double numbers used. PJ Hill wore #39 throughout his time with UW. But, in 2005 #39 was also worn by Sheboygan native Brian Herman. The post above from SI notes that #39 was also apparently used by a linebacker named Brian Sell. So there could have been three players on the sidelines wearing #39 jerseys during this game.

So to the most important point in whether or not the jersey was worn in a game by PJ Hill. PJ Hill was redshirted in 2005. This is the key point I did a miserable job of articulating in the first post. UW didn't wear these jerseys in 2006 - 2008, PJ Hill's time with Badgers as an active player. Redshirt players do dress for the games, so he could have worn the jersey (or Herman, or Sell), but it was not likely to have been used in the game - particularly by PJ Hill.

So to summarize my points:
- This jersey has been listed, received bids, only to appear in future auctions. Apparently the bids received are not meeting the reserve price.
- These are great jerseys, I believe a member of the forum has Brian Calhoun's uniform and perhaps helmet from his record setting performance from this game. So if in fact Vintage did carefully craft the wording of the listing to make it appear that this is a game used PJ Hill uniform, why? Would an accurate description of an authentic throwback UW uniform bring in that much less interest?
- Buyer beware, listings are not always what they appear to be.
- I promise to be more careful and articulate in all future posts.

Matt

You are correct on multiple players wearing #39 that season. Those jerseys came with a letter from the Badgers. Hill was the "big name" to wear that number which may be the reason the letter is conveniently missing. That same uniform is listed for sale on CollegeJersey.com for $1499. No mention of being worn by Hill, only #39.

[G1X]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

I was looking at the Plum jersey but need some help from forum members. My concerns are;

1) Different era Sand-knit tags - one tag has a gold ribbon on the medal while the other tag has a black ribbon on the medal;
2) are the sleeve numbers the right size;
3) Did the Rams wear NOB on their jerseys in 1968;
4) Were mesh or durene jerseys worn in 1968; and,
5) Back numbers seem a tad low.

http://www.vintagesportsauthentics.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=12788&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=25&category=6&seo=Milt-Plum-1968-Game-Used-Rams-Jersey-GU-5.5

Since PLUM only played in four (4) games in 1968, hopefully my search won't be that complicated. Any help would be helpful.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumMi00.htm

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

Jim,

Here are the answers to your questions:
1. You are correct. The Sand Knit tags are from the early 1970s. If you observe the top tag closely, it states that the tag is designed and tailored exclusively for the Los Angeles Rams of the National Football Conference. The NFC did not come into existence until 1970 which was the first year that the two leagues (NFL and AFL) merged into one league (NFL) and the two conferences (NFC and AFC) were established. The black "ball" at the bottom of the medal on the Sand knit size tag was last used in 1970 or 1971 as it was changed to gold on the tag circa 1971 or '72 (definitely by 1972). That would put this jersey being no older than 1970 or '71 based strictly on the tagging. That is a full 2 years after Plum last played for the Rams! (Plum retired after the 1969 season when he appeared in one game with the Giants).

2. I cannot establish the actual size of the numbers on the Plum jersey. The standard size of sleeve numbers for teams in that era was 4 inches. However, several teams such as the Rams and 49ers had larger sleeve numbers on both their home and road jerseys in the late-1960s as seen in photos and game film from that era. I have a late-1960s Rams jersey in my collection with the larger sleeve numbers, and they measure 45/8 inches. It appears that the Rams still had the large sleeve numbers when they started wearing mesh in the early 1970s. The last year they wore the particular style of blue jersey seen on auction jersey was 1972. In 1973, they switched to the style that had gold numbers and gold rams horn inserts in the shoulders.

3. No, the Rams did not wear names on the back of their jerseys in 1968. None of the NFL teams wore names on the back of their jerseys until the 1970 season. Only the AFL teams were wearing names-on-back during the 1960s.

4. I cannot find any evidence of the Rams wearing mesh jerseys until the early 1970s. They did not wear blue often during that time, and every photo I could locate from the late-1960s showed them wearing durene regardless if they were wearing their blue jerseys or white jerseys.

5. The numbers would definitely be too low for a 1968 jersey, probably not so for a mesh jersey from the early 1970s.

One other point, for what it's worth. The letter font on the name-on-back (Plum) is not the typical style that the Rams used in the early 1970s.

I hope this information is helpful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons, World Football League, and NFL/AFL durene jerseys, and any Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game-used equipment.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

Jim,

Here are the answers to your questions:
1. You are correct. The Sand Knit tags are from the early 1970s. If you observe the top tag closely, it states that the tag is designed and tailored exclusively for the Los Angeles Rams of the National Football Conference. The NFC did not come into existence until 1970 which was the first year that the two leagues (NFL and AFL) merged into one league (NFL) and the two conferences (NFC and AFC) were established. The black "ball" at the bottom of the medal on the Sand knit size tag was last used in 1970 or 1971 as it was changed to gold on the tag circa 1971 or '72 (definitely by 1972). That would put this jersey being no older than 1970 or '71 based strictly on the tagging. That is a full 2 years after Plum last played for the Rams! (Plum retired after the 1969 season when he appeared in one game with the Giants).

2. I cannot establish the actual size of the numbers on the Plum jersey. The standard size of sleeve numbers for teams in that era was 4 inches. However, several teams such as the Rams and 49ers had larger sleeve numbers on both their home and road jerseys in the late-1960s as seen in photos and game film from that era. I have a late-1960s Rams jersey in my collection with the larger sleeve numbers, and they measure 45/8 inches. It appears that the Rams still had the large sleeve numbers when they started wearing mesh in the early 1970s. The last year they wore the particular style of blue jersey seen on auction jersey was 1972. In 1973, they switched to the style that had gold numbers and gold rams horn inserts in the shoulders.

3. No, the Rams did not wear names on the back of their jerseys in 1968. None of the NFL teams wore names on the back of their jerseys until the 1970 season. Only the AFL teams were wearing names-on-back during the 1960s.

4. I cannot find any evidence of the Rams wearing mesh jerseys until the early 1970s. They did not wear blue often during that time, and every photo I could locate from the late-1960s showed them wearing durene regardless if they were wearing their blue jerseys or white jerseys.

5. The numbers would definitely be too low for a 1968 jersey, probably not so for a mesh jersey from the early 1970s.

One other point, for what it's worth. The letter font on the name-on-back (Plum) is not the typical style that the Rams used in the early 1970s.

I hope this information is helpful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons, World Football League, and NFL/AFL durene jerseys, and any Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game-used equipment.

Mark,

As always, terrific information -

[DoctorLoomis]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

Wow Mark....what an expert post. I hope I am not alone on this...but for VA to run jerseys like this makes me sick. It is disgusting and pathetic. Lou Lampson signing his name to it also makes me want to vomit as well. I hope you saved at least one person from buying a fugazi.

[trsent]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

Is there something you can help identify why the jersey is bad? Lack of use isn't enough. I assume there is an issue with the tagging or something. Please elaborate.

DoctorLoomis, since you have started reading this thread again, can you please elaborate answering my questions above. I'm sure if you find an issue with an item, you are right an incredibly high percentage of the time. The problem is you just can't say something like "my friend confirmed to me this item is fake." You have to be responsible and explain why you find it not good.

I was very interested but you never replied with details.

As a paid authenticator, when you call an item out you should explain why because then hopefully the auction house pulls the item so an innocent person doesn't buy the item and get stuck with something that is not as advertised. If you just come on here and claim it bad, with no evidence given, most auction houses ignore the post as sour grapes, which I assume your post isn't since I know you know your stuff.

[DeacDoug]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

Excellent analysis Mark. Hard to believe that someone would forge a Milt Plum jersey, but I guess older jerseys are hard to come by. Milt was the original "dink and dunk" guy.

[DoctorLoomis]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

DoctorLoomis, since you have started reading this thread again, can you please elaborate answering my questions above. I'm sure if you find an issue with an item, you are right an incredibly high percentage of the time. The problem is you just can't say something like "my friend confirmed to me this item is fake." You have to be responsible and explain why you find it not good.

I was very interested but you never replied with details.

As a paid authenticator, when you call an item out you should explain why because then hopefully the auction house pulls the item so an innocent person doesn't buy the item and get stuck with something that is not as advertised. If you just come on here and claim it bad, with no evidence given, most auction houses ignore the post as sour grapes, which I assume your post isn't since I know you know your stuff.

Hi Joel...I apologize for not replying to your questions sooner. I can't and won't mention any names as I do not like to speak for anyone else...but I can tell you this: All '09 Peterson white jerseys have been accounted for. All of them have a paper trail. The offered shirt simply is not one of them. It does not have the wear, the paperwork, and as I said said above, all 09 Petersons are known and accounted for.

[trsent]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

Hi Joel...I apologize for not replying to your questions sooner. I can't and won't mention any names as I do not like to speak for anyone else...but I can tell you this: All '09 Peterson white jerseys have been accounted for. All of them have a paper trail. The offered shirt simply is not one of them. It does not have the wear, the paperwork, and as I said said above, all 09 Petersons are known and accounted for.

I was emailed privately by Steve Jensen from Vintage Authentics tonight, and he claims the jersey is 100% legitimate and they came from a collector who was given them right from the team. He also stated, word for word: "That AP jersey was 100% the real deal and someone got a steal And not all of the AP's have Vikings team letters. He has given 6 gamers to Lou Lampson over the years. I watched him give 2 to Lou as he was taking my car for a drive "

He also wrote: "Funny, none of the gamers AP has given Lou has paperwork I have had at least a dozen or so Peterson gamers submitted to me that Lou has failed over the last 4 years. There are certain guys that Lou is harder on and Peterson is one of them."

Personally, I don't know if the AP jersey is good or not but how you know the jerseys are all accounted for when Steve Jensen claims that is not a fact makes me wonder. If there is an issue with an item, generally the auction house should be contacted with the concerns, they are to be given time (the forum states 24 hours) to respond and then the comments can be made questioning an item.

It sounded from Steve's email that he was never contacted about the jersey and your personal concerns. Steve gave me the story about the gentleman who received six jerseys from the team directly seemed pretty honorable and I am beginning to wonder if your facts are correct. Why Steve was not contacted first also confuses me.

I am not a big fan of Lou Lampson's lack of communication with collectors. He writes/signs letters and doesn't offer an email or phone number for support when issues arise. I also know Lou is one of the most knowledgeable when it comes to game used football. I don't like his knowledge of other sports items, but many in the industry trust his knowledge of football.

[trsent]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

Excellent analysis Mark. Hard to believe that someone would forge a Milt Plum jersey, but I guess older jerseys are hard to come by. Milt was the original "dink and dunk" guy.

Steve Jensen also commented to me about this jersey quoted below:

"The guy with the milt plum post was correct. Lou "passed" the jersey but not as a milt plum jersey. He said it was actually a different year with plum nameplate put back on but dropped that on me the last day of the auction. i meant to pull it but was bombarded with the typical last day rush. i contacted the winning bidder to let him know that it was not passed as a milt plum jersey and for him to return it for a refund."

[sox83cubs84]

Re: Vintage Authentics Current Auction

I haven't had a whole lot of time to dig around but I did have some time to look at the tags. In checking the Sand-knit tags, isn't the bottom tag (Gold ribbon) dated up and until the late 1960's while the top tag (Black ribbon) dated to the mid 1970's? It that's so, how does a mid 1970's tag appear on a jersey used by Plum in 1968?

Also, Since Plum played in just 4 games in 1968, I found photos from 2 of the games he played in (9/22/ and 12/8) and the Rams wore white jerseys NOT blue jerseys. The search continues and I haven't decided on whether or not I'll bid. Again, any help would be appreciated.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

This "1968 Plum jersey" (with an NFC exclusive tag before the NFC would have existed) is up on eBay right now, courtesy of jerseys4thewin. A dozen bids but th price has yet to reach $170.


Dave Miedema