Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

**cjclong** · 08-21-2006, 10:00 AM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Do you know what would account for the shipping records not showing this model bat shipped to Ripken during this time?

**mr.miracle** · 08-21-2006, 10:14 AM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Great question, I don't know that I have an answer. Perhaps Mike can chime in on this one as I have had extensive conversations with him about this. Shipping records show of course many, many Ripken P-72's in various finishes throughout Cal's career. However according to Mike only two total black finish P-72's were ever shipped anywhere prior to 1991 when the black finish P-72 became primarily the bat of choice for Cal for much of the remainder of this career. I currently own 2 black P-72's both showing incredible game use. One of the other reasons that I am selling this one is because I have two total. I asked Mike what the chance of me owning the only two black finish P-72 bats ever shipped prior to 1991 anywhere are? Again, no clear answer. There of course is no way to definitively know if bats shipped during the 86-89 labeling period were in any way mislabled as to finish. I have yet to be able to photo match one from this era being used by Cal during the 86-89 labeling period as well.

If these bats had come from an unknown source or did not exhibit all the classic Cal use traits, I would doubt that they are authentic. However, given all the use traits and where this came from, I have no doubt about this items authenticity.

I don't want to speak for Mike Specht, but he also mentioned that bats from the 86-89 labeling period were shipped as late as 1994 to various places often to various minor league teams. If this bat is not used by Cal then somebody went to an incredible length to replicate all his use patterns.

Don't know if that helps, but hope it answers a bit more in terms of questions. While I know that some collectors won't touch a bat that does not perfectly match factory records, I belive that the use characteristics and the fact that it came from one of the premier Ripken collectors in the country who in my opinion would not buy a bat himself that he was not fully comfortable with in his own collection.

BTW, feel free to contact Dan Derleth about this bat as he is aware that I am selling it and may be able to provide additional feedback. You can contact him at Ripkengamers@aol.com

**CollectGU** · 08-21-2006, 08:58 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Brett,

This is just my opinion, but you are asking an astronomical amount of money for a bat that might possibly not even get graded by PSA. The fact that factory records show only two of these bats going to baseball promotions basically says "stay away" in big red flashing letters no matter how great the use characteristics match up to Cal - he never ordered these bats for himself to use...

**mr.miracle** · 08-21-2006, 09:09 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

I appreciate the feedback, given the fact that current Ripken bats have been going for over 3k in recent months I am not sure this is out of line. Like I said in a previous post, is it possible that I have the only 2 black P-72's ever shipped anywhere prior to 1991? It is possible but it is also possible that martians will land on the White House lawn tomorrow night as well. I am not trying to make lite of this however it is highly, highly improbable that I would own the only two P-72 game model Ripken bats with a black finish in existence which both just happen to show outstanding use characteristics that match Ripken game used bats to a perfect standard. Just so you know that Dan Derleth, forum member and notable Ripken collector was the previous owner of both of these bats. While anything is possible, I would highly trust a noted Ripken collector who has collected this player for over 15 years in terms of knowing his game used items.

Bottom line is this, if all other use characteristics are there and anybody did not know the shipping records behind this bat, there is no way that anybody would possibly question the background of this bat. Like I said, see for yourself, if somebody doctored this bat it would have had to have been somebody who really knew their Ripken game used bats and Cal's use characteristics. Although I could never prove this, it seems more likely to me that somehow at the factory, the finish was not properly recorded on one of the orders rather than me owning the only two bats in existence with this finish from that era. I am going to do some additional research to try to photo style match the bat to that era. Perhaps that would satisfy this arguement.

Thanks

**mr.miracle** · 08-21-2006, 09:28 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Forum Readers,

Just an FYI, I want everyone to understand that I have no intention of selling any item in any manner of deception. I want to be fully up front and honest about these bats. I am attempting to find out additional information about this bat as we speak. It is my intent to make sure that any potential buyer is fully informed and satisfied as to this bats authenticity. Please let me know if you have further questions or concerns. As always, I appreciate all the feedback.

**mr.miracle** · 08-22-2006, 02:19 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

http://cgi.ebay.com/95-Cal-Ripken-Jr-Baltimore-Orioles-Flair-Enduring-5_W0QQitemZ250017305148QQihZ015QQcategoryZ55938QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

Thanks to Ironmanfan for locating a picture of Cal with a black finished bat from a 1987 baseball card, link is above. While one cannot tell the model from this bat it does seem to indicate that something is missing from the factory records. I am not aware of Cal ever sharing or using a teammates bat. Other than that how else could it be explained how he is holding a black finish bat in a photo from 1987 other than factory records being incomplete or mislabled? Since no black finish bats are ever documented as being shipped to Cal in any model prior to 1990 it begs the question about why he is holding a black finish bat. It certainly provides some additional indications that the P-72 black finish model that is for sale is the real deal. I will continue to search for additional photos.

Thanks

**CollectGU** · 08-22-2006, 06:34 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Brett,

Let's tke a step back here. It seems like you want this so bad to be a Ripken gamer that you are reaching. Bottom line it doesn't match factory records and almost all game used bat collectors aren't going to spend $1,000 let alone over $2,000 on a bat that doesn't match factory records. It's too easy for someone to fake game use/characteristics on a bat to buy something that doesn't match factory records for $2,000 when you can purchase a Ripken bat that matches factory records for what you are asking...I'm curious, Why did you buy this bat if it didn't match factory records?

**mr.miracle** · 08-23-2006, 08:02 AM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Originally posted by CollectGU

Brett,

Let's tke a step back here. It seems like you want this so bad to be a Ripken gamer that you are reaching. Bottom line it doesn't match factory records and almost all game used bat collectors aren't going to spend $1,000 let alone over $2,000 on a bat that doesn't match factory records. It's too easy for someone to fake game use/characteristics on a bat to buy something that doesn't match factory records for $2,000 when you can purchase a Ripken bat that matches factory records for what you are asking...I'm curious, Why did you buy this bat if it didn't match factory records?

I am not saying that this bat is the bat Cal is holding. In fact, ultimately the picture that Ironmanfan provided proves nothing in regard to this bat specifically. All I am saying is that a picture of Cal with a black bat from 1987 when he never ordered or had any shipped to him until June 1990 must raise some questions.

Is it completely outside the realm of possibilities that something is either unaccounted for in the factory records or mislabled? While this could never be proven, unless I can provide photographic evidence of multiple Cal at bats from the mid 80's using a black P72 with his name on it, I believe that many collectors question how complete H & B factory records really are. Of course none of this helps this situation.

In answer to your question, I did not think it necessary to check the records (my mistake) prior to the purchase given the source of the bats. In Dan's defense, he purchased much of his collection 10-15 years ago long before this forum or any factory records were available to the public. Since I know that he has what I would term very solid sources for many of his game used items, I did not feel it was necessary. The other reason is that Cal so heavily used black finish P-72 bats throughout his career that I was completely dumbfounded to find out that he did not start using them at least according to records until 1991. These bats so closely match other use characteristics that I did not give it a second thought that they could be anything other than what they were reported to be.

While it is possible to fake items, given the fact that two of the bats were I believe in Dan's possession for over 10 years, how many people would have gone to that trouble 10-15 years ago? Cal has always been tough in terms of finding his quality game used memorabilia but did anyone know all the usual Cal game used bat characteristics 10-15 years ago such as cleat marks on the back barrel etc.? If they did would they care? Cal bats 15 years ago were selling for a fraction of their current cost. That was pre-streak record breaking and back then Cal was just another very good player certainly not a first ballot HOF player. Would it have been worth faking? I don't think so but that is my opinion.

My other response is that if you can find me a good solid Ripken game used bat right now for $2000 showing all the use characteristics and solid provence I will buy it from you right now. I am not sure if you have been checking recent auction results but his bats are up in the $3000 range and above.

Lastly, while it is certainly possible that someone could have really known their stuff and faked both bats; is it probable that somehow the only two black finish P-72's in existence from the 86-89 labeling period according to factory records would happen to end up in the hands of Dan Derleth both showing incredible Ripken use characterisitics? Seems like a hugh, hugh stretch to me. Dan did not even purchase both from the same person so that theory does not work.

I am simply looking at all the evidence provided and short of the factory records not matching everything else is solid. Like I said, 10-15 years ago factory records were not available to the public. Heck, MEARS and most of the authenticators did not exist back then and the game used craze was really just beginning to explode. Dan and every collector had to rely on the provence of the item and basically the word of the seller unless they could obtain the item directly from the player. In any case, if we cannot resolve this satisfactorily, Dan will make it right since he is a man of his word. He is attempting to contact his sources and see what he can come up with on the history of these bats.

Here is another mystery that perhaps someone can solve. I have a hickory finish M110 Ripken from 1982 era. According to Mike Specht, there were only four total orders of Ripken M110 bats every produced/shipped to Cal. All were in a natural finish according to factory records. There is no record of any hickory finish M110's or any other M110's ever being shipped anywhere but to Cal. How do you explain that? I have no explanation if someone does please let me know.

Thanks

**stkmtimo** · 08-23-2006, 01:42 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

I don't want to really jump in here and am by no means a Ripken expert, but I don't see the problem with Brett selling this bat at all. Since when should someone be able to chime in and say what another person can and can't sell? Brett paid his hard earned money for it and has every right to offer it for sale. Doesn't make much sense to me. Brett, I appreciate your explanations and intensive research done into this topic and I believe the fact that Dan Derleth also owned this bat says a lot about it. Let's face it - humans make mistakes. There could be a very legitimate reason why this bat wasn't included in the factory records. I guarantee you that at least a few bats escaped the records department at H&B some time or another and thus would not match factory records. To be honest, we can never know. Brett, good luck selling the bat as it looks like a great gamer.

Tim

**mr.miracle** · 08-23-2006, 02:07 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Originally posted by stkmtimo

I don't want to really jump in here and am by no means a Ripken expert, but I don't see the problem with Brett selling this bat at all. Since when should someone be able to chime in and say what another person can and can't sell? Brett paid his hard earned money for it and has every right to offer it for sale. Doesn't make much sense to me. Brett, I appreciate your explanations and intensive research done into this topic and I believe the fact that Dan Derleth also owned this bat says a lot about it. Let's face it - humans make mistakes. There could be a very legitimate reason why this bat wasn't included in the factory records. I guarantee you that at least a few bats escaped the records department at H&B some time or another and thus would not match factory records. To be honest, we can never know. Brett, good luck selling the bat as it looks like a great gamer.

Tim

Tim,

I appreciate your feedback as well as Collect GU. To be quite honest I am just as perplexed as anyone else and certainly concerned that this bat and two others I own are exactly what they are reported to be. As I hope to be a member of this forum for a long long time and certainly appreciate all the very knowlegable members of it, I don't ever want to sell anything to anyone that I would not buy myself.

I don't know if I will be able to provide conclusive evidence that supports this as a game used 100% authentic bat used by Cal. I am however planning to continue to look for pictures to try to photo style match it that would at least provide some measure of support to this mystery. What is making this extremley difficult as you might guess is that Cal had so many at bats over that time period that to possibly find a photo style match may prove to be impossible.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's feedback and assistance to this point trying to solve this mystery.

Thanks

**hblakewolf** · 08-23-2006, 02:07 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Tim-
Well said. If Brett came onto the Forum, listed the bats, and then it was discovered that they did not match records, I would have an issue. In this case, however, how much more honest could Brett be on these bats? He has made several posts and added new informaiton as he receives it.

It's not as though he's taken a pen to the knob or repaired a crack by concealing it with extra pinetar and not disclosed it. If that was the case, then indeed we have a serious issue.

In my opinion, Brett has plaid by the rules and simply desires to sell a bat he no longer has interest in. If a fellow Forum reader does not agree or has a problem with the fact that it does not match factory records, then don't buy it.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

**cjclong** · 08-23-2006, 02:19 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Brett, you have been completley honest about the lack of records on the bat. Having told everyone the facts as you know them collectors can make their own judgement as to whether they want the the bat. As long as a seller is honest as you have been then its up to the buyer to determine whether they want to make a purchase. There are some items that fall into the category of "we'll never know for sure unless the player hands it to us" and in that case if the seller is honest about the facts its up to the buyer to make an informed decison as to whether he wants the item. In this case the only way to know for sure might be to ask Ripken, if he remembers. Several years ago I went to a game where I was certain Pudge Rodriguez used a black Louisville Slugger. I later purchased a bat that was autograhed by Pudge as being used in the game and it was a two tone Louisville Slugger. For years I thought I had been ripped off until , thanks to this forum, I found Getty Images and discovered Pudge had in fact used a two tone bat in that specific game. My own eyes had been wrong. I suspect the same thing can sometimes happen with records. Knowing the facts its up to the buyer to determine whether the records could be wrong or if the bat may not be game used by Ripken and make their decision whether to buy or not.

**sportscentury** · 08-23-2006, 03:21 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Guys,

I knew about this bat before it was on eBay and before Brett posted on the forum about it. He was completely up front about the factory records from the beginning. The factory records are not complete - this is a fact. There are varying opinions as to how complete/incomplete they are, but no knowledgeable bat dealer, collector, or authenticator believes them to be complete. Again, it is important to consider a broad myriad of factors when evaluating an item. I can't say this enough.

Brett, good luck with the bat. Some folks enjoy posting provocative notes in order to get a rise out of someone. It is an old, tired game. I wouldn't pay any attention to it.

Again, best of luck with this sale.
Reid

**stkmtimo** · 08-23-2006, 04:02 PM

Re: Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Originally posted by sportscentury

Guys,

I knew about this bat before it was on eBay and before Brett posted on the forum about it. He was completely up front about the factory records from the beginning. The factory records are not complete - this is a fact. There are varying opinions as to how complete/incomplete they are, but no knowledgeable bat dealer, collector, or authenticator believes them to be complete. Again, it is important to consider a broad myriad of factors when evaluating an item. I can't say this enough.

Reid,
Thank you for pointing this crucial point out. I, like most other bat collectors knew that the records were incomplete and therefore like you said, they should not be the only factor we use to judge whether or not a bat is actually game used. If it matches factory records, fantastic! If not, though, we cannot immediately say the bat isn't genuine or isn't used by the said player.

I think it's important to equate this type of myopic thinking to investing. When someone buys an individual stock, they shouldn't do so just because it has a P/E under 10 or because John Doe an analyst XYZ Investments has it rated as a "Strong Buy". In order to make prudent investment decisions in both the financial markets and the sports memorabilia market, intensive research is required. Thankfully Brett has done his homework and has been upfront with everyone. To me, the bat looks like a very nice Ripken gamer. The buyer will get a great bat.

Tim

Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Cal Ripken Black P-72 86-89 for sale

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment