Rea

[trsent]

Re: Rea

Email I received from Robert Lifson:

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Hi Joel! I tried to post on GUU a couple of days ago about the Rivera jersey but I couldn’t get logged on (I think the system has changed since I last posted years ago) and when I tried to register, warnings came up that the security certificate had lapsed and that I should not continue. I’m not a computer guy but when my computer tells me very clearly not to proceed or it may harm my computer, I listen!)[/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Anyway, I saw your post about the Sanders and I can provide some information about our thought process. The jersey was identified by MEARS as dating from 1991 to 1993, but more specifically dated to precisely 1992 because in 1991 and 1993 there were sleeve patches (which are not present). But we now have the information from the email below (and images) that we have great confidence in and which suggest that this is not a jersey game-used in 1992. MEARS LOA notwithstanding, we are not comfortable that this jersey is properly described, we are not sure exactly what it is, and while it may very well have great merit properly described, based on the information that we have we have no choice but to withdraw this jersey from the auction. [/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']You are welcome to post any or all of this information, and please communicate that we are grateful for any questions and heads-up on any potentially problem items. GUU members perform a tremendous service when potential issues are pointed out to look into. Thank you![/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Sincerely, [/FONT]
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif'][/FONT]
Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, N.J. 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

PS We are checking with Stener regarding the Rivera jesrey and letter. They are not the easiest organization to communicate with and frankly it is a little frustrating, but we are confident that we will be successful. We think the letter (and jesrey) are fine but will verify. We have already called and emailed numerous times! We are persistant and WILL get confirmation!

[trsent]

Re: Rea

Robert also sent me a bunch of pictures that maybe can we can use to help him accept or reject this jersey:

[cliffjmp33]

Re: Rea

Found another Getty image for the Sanders jersey. Wish it was a little bigger photo though, but wanted to pass it along.

[solarlottry]

Re: Rea

That seems to be a photomatch looking at the Sanders shirt and game photos. The NFL shield looks exactly like the same placement in both photos and the shoulder repairs also look similar. The repairs, i supposed, could be faked but the shield you would have to remove and sewn on again and this would easily be seen by looking at the inside of the shirt.

This shirt looks like Roger Gibson's Sanders shirt. i wonder what he would have to say about it. i thought his shirt had a team letter and was photo and video matched.

Always buying 1994 49er shirts (and others) and paying up to a 500$ "finders fee" for any 1994 49er shirt depending on the player

Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[trsent]

Re: Rea

Just took a look at that "1998 World Series Used Rivera jersey". The Steiner letter shown there is fake. I've seen this type of fake Steiner letter countless times now. The fake letters seem to all have come from the same source, somebody must have made a mint doing this at some time.

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=19662

The tells on the letter are:
1-The use of different text for the description of the actual item from the rest of the text. True Steiner letters have the same text in the body of the letter throughout.
2-The use of the older non-numbered Steiner hologram. The perpetrator of many of these fake Steiner letters utilized those holograms (easily obtainable from very inexpensive Steiner items) and slapped them onto his fake letters and items. Easy to pair up as they are all the same. The later Steiner holos added numbers to match them up.
3-The yellow rail pattern at the top of the letter does not reach the edges of the paper. On real Steiner letters it does.

The letter is a color scan of an original letter with the description text slapped on and then printed and the new hologram added.

I don't have a personal critique for the actual shirt but the Rivera name on the tag appears suspect to me. Regardless, the fake letter is all I needed to tell me to stay away without even having to look at the shirt.

The extra "credit card" style certificate is what Steiner offers at public signings. I'd imagine the person who took this to the signing showed Rivera the paperwork to convince him to inscribe it that way. Because the auto looks completely legit. But the fact that the card is included in the auction actually does indicate it was signed at a later date.

The only question is whether the consignor of this item was duped himself and was unaware of it or if the consignor is the actual creator of the fake letter. But I wouldn't bid more than the price of an autographed jersey on this shirt because thats all it is.

Here is the email I received from Robert Lifson, who talked to Steiner and they verified the letter with the Rivera jersey is genuine. I don't know what grounds were used to call the letter "fake" but it was not fair these accuations were made without first contacting the auction house or Steiner:

Hi Joel! I spoke to Steiner twice today and asked them to send a letter in writing to confirm the authenticity of the jersey and letter (which they did and which appears below). They have clearly expressed that they are certain the jersey and the letter are 100%. In my experience, if they were not certain they would never follow up with a letter such as that which appears below. They expressed that they appreciated my checking with them and very much want to be on top of any issues relating to the Steiner Sports name.

Sincerely,

Rob L

Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, N.J. 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

From: AJ Romeo
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:51 PM
To: info@robertedwardauctions.com
Cc: AJ Romeo; Michael Tanella
Subject:

Robert -

Hope all is well, I wanted to touch base with you regarding the letter of authenticity for the Mariano Rivera 1998 World Series Game Used Jersey

After carefully looking at the letter of authenticity, it is valid.

If you have any further questions please contact me.

Thank you,

AJ Romeo
Steiner Sports | Director Team Partnerships
145 Huguenot Street | New Rochelle, NY 10801
o 914.307.1100 | f 914.632.1102 | m 914.318.9676
aromeo@steinersports.com

[trsent]

Re: Rea

Oops, I misunderstood the pictures that Robert Lifson sent, so please read the email he just sent me below:

Hi Joel! I'm not sure it is clear that the pictures I sent (that accompanied the email below) are pictures of the real 1992 Game-Used Sanders jersey that is owned by Roger Gibson. This jersey can be photomatched to every 1992 home game. Therefore, the jersey that REA has that is authenticated by MEARS cannot possibly be a 1992 Barry Sanders Game-Used home jersey. It also cannot be a 1991 or 1993 jersey due to not having patches on the sleeves (and there are no patch removals). We're not sure what the jersey is, but it isn't a 1992 Game-Used jersey. So we pulled it. I don't want GUU readers to get confused with the images we sent - they are not of the jersey we have. They are of the jersey we wish we had! Hope this helps with any confusion and thanks very much for posting the info.


Sincerely,

Rob L
Robert Lifson
Robert Edward Auctions LLC
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

[sox83cubs84]

Re: Rea

The Mo Rivera jersey is junk. I don't recall ever seeing a Yankees jersey (or any jersey, for that matter) made by Russell with a dual case NIT. Everything I've seen that I like has been all caps.

Dave Miedema

[bronx_burner]

Re: Rea

I don't know what grounds were used to call the letter "fake" but it was not fair these accuations were made without first contacting the auction house or Steiner

I don't recall accusing REA or Steiner of anything. In fact I'm a fan of both. I have bid with REA and I own many Steiner items. That said, the reason I made my post was for the good of the hobby and for the benefit of anyone who might be interested in this item. But maybe I've been reading the line at the bottom of every page of this forum incorrectly.

While I commend both REA for inquiring about the letter with Steiner, and Steiner for their response, I still will stand by my statement that the letter is a fake. I guess by that, you can conclude that I think Mr. Romeo does not know the letters of his company as well as one might hope. I don't fault him for that in the least. I don't suspect there are too many Steiner employees that have examined their letters in great detail, that know how many different letterheads they have used over the years, that know what kind of paper they use, that know the font styles utilized, that know where certain border trims begin and end. I think its also common to fixate on the item itself and overlook a letter. And I suspect thats probably the exact reason why someone took advantage of the flaw in the system.

The "grounds" for stating my belief that the letter is a fake were listed in my initial post on the subject. The font of the text of the description differs greatly from the font of the rest of the body of the letter. And the yellow rail trim at the top does not touch the edges of the paper. This does not match legitimate Steiner letters. Maybe thats not enough for someone, but its enough for me. Scroll through ebay, type in Yankees Steiner in the search and checking the box to search titles and descriptions, and limit your search to just the Game Used category. You will come up with hundreds of listings which have photos of accompanying Steiner letters. Tell me how many you find that go against these standards. I can tell you that in a quick search by myself, I only found one other, and it happens to match the style of this Rivera letter. I wasn't surprised that it was a high end Jeter jersey. In fact, as I have stated I've come across these letters more than a few times over the years and without fail, they are associated with star Yankees jerseys (Rivera, Jeter, Matsui, Pettitte, Posada etc.). Make of that what you will, but I think its obvious where it leads.

Below is a photo of the nine letters I have currently in my possession with the same letterhead as the REA Rivera. I limited to just examples with the Lecount Place address, though I can assure you that letters with the Huguenot Street address follow suit. I can also assure you that while I have not shown the descriptions of the items for my own privacy, all of the letters have text where the font style matches fully throughout the letters including the description of the items.




I don't know how the inquiry with Steiner was presented. If it was simply a question of whether they thought the letter looked good or if the actual features of the letter were pointed out specifically as to what is questionable about it. Also, REA should verify if the paper the letter is printed on has a watermark. Again, all legitimate Steiner letters that I have come across do.

I am not trying to call out anyone for bad business practices. I think both REA and Steiner are good companies. I don't necessarily think the consignor is at fault either, he may have been duped himself, which is a shame. The bottom line is that I'm certain regardless of who disagrees that there are items that are out there in this hobby that have taken advantage of this flaw in Steiner letters. This is a flaw that seems to have been somewhat lessened by the use of matching numbered holograms on the letters, because they cannot be removed from letters and reused without severe damage. That does not get rid of the items that are already out there using the older holograms to create these fake letters.

Again I made the post to help the collector community and that is also in answer to the second part of your response about why I didn't contact REA or Steiner. All that would have accomplished at best would get this item sent back to its consigner. In posting, it lets the members of this board become more educated on an issue that might be helpful to them in the future. If that is out of line, then I guess I see why a lot of good voices in the hobby are no longer heard from.

[trsent]

Re: Rea

The Mo Rivera jersey is junk. I don't recall ever seeing a Yankees jersey (or any jersey, for that matter) made by Russell with a dual case NIT. Everything I've seen that I like has been all caps.

Dave Miedema

Well, if Dave has issues, I guess more research needs to be done. When did Steiner start working with The Yankees? We all know they got a lot of stuff from years before when they were used and certified it.

Now, this jersey doesn't match the jersey he wore in Game One of the 1998 World Series:

[trsent]

Re: Rea

I don't recall accusing REA or Steiner of anything. In fact I'm a fan of both. I have bid with REA and I own many Steiner items. That said, the reason I made my post was for the good of the hobby and for the benefit of anyone who might be interested in this item. But maybe I've been reading the line at the bottom of every page of this forum incorrectly.

While I commend both REA for inquiring about the letter with Steiner, and Steiner for their response, I still will stand by my statement that the letter is a fake. I guess by that, you can conclude that I think Mr. Romeo does not know the letters of his company as well as one might hope. I don't fault him for that in the least. I don't suspect there are too many Steiner employees that have examined their letters in great detail, that know how many different letterheads they have used over the years, that know what kind of paper they use, that know the font styles utilized, that know where certain border trims begin and end. I think its also common to fixate on the item itself and overlook a letter. And I suspect thats probably the exact reason why someone took advantage of the flaw in the system.

The "grounds" for stating my belief that the letter is a fake were listed in my initial post on the subject. The font of the text of the description differs greatly from the font of the rest of the body of the letter. And the yellow rail trim at the top does not touch the edges of the paper. This does not match legitimate Steiner letters. Maybe thats not enough for someone, but its enough for me. Scroll through ebay, type in Yankees Steiner in the search and checking the box to search titles and descriptions, and limit your search to just the Game Used category. You will come up with hundreds of listings which have photos of accompanying Steiner letters. Tell me how many you find that go against these standards. I can tell you that in a quick search by myself, I only found one other, and it happens to match the style of this Rivera letter. I wasn't surprised that it was a high end Jeter jersey. In fact, as I have stated I've come across these letters more than a few times over the years and without fail, they are associated with star Yankees jerseys (Rivera, Jeter, Matsui, Pettitte, Posada etc.). Make of that what you will, but I think its obvious where it leads.

Below is a photo of the nine letters I have currently in my possession with the same letterhead as the REA Rivera. I limited to just examples with the Lecount Place address, though I can assure you that letters with the Huguenot Street address follow suit. I can also assure you that while I have not shown the descriptions of the items for my own privacy, all of the letters have text where the font style matches fully throughout the letters including the description of the items.

I don't know how the inquiry with Steiner was presented. If it was simply a question of whether they thought the letter looked good or if the actual features of the letter were pointed out specifically as to what is questionable about it. Also, REA should verify if the paper the letter is printed on has a watermark. Again, all legitimate Steiner letters that I have come across do.

I am not trying to call out anyone for bad business practices. I think both REA and Steiner are good companies. I don't necessarily think the consignor is at fault either, he may have been duped himself, which is a shame. The bottom line is that I'm certain regardless of who disagrees that there are items that are out there in this hobby that have taken advantage of this flaw in Steiner letters. This is a flaw that seems to have been somewhat lessened by the use of matching numbered holograms on the letters, because they cannot be removed from letters and reused without severe damage. That does not get rid of the items that are already out there using the older holograms to create these fake letters.

Again I made the post to help the collector community and that is also in answer to the second part of your response about why I didn't contact REA or Steiner. All that would have accomplished at best would get this item sent back to its consigner. In posting, it lets the members of this board become more educated on an issue that might be helpful to them in the future. If that is out of line, then I guess I see why a lot of good voices in the hobby are no longer heard from.

Very interesting reply and neat to see your letters with the one shown in the auction.

My concern is the item was called out without first contacting REA or Steiner. I do not have any problems with REA and Steiner and I have had issues with them certifying items years after they were worn and also with their Muhammad Ali certified items without Online Authentics that PSA/DNA will not pass, but otherwise I believe Steiner to be a good company.

I didn't think you were accusing Steiner or REA of any wrongdoing. I just think before the item is called out Steiner or REA should be contacted.

[trsent]

Re: Rea

Email just came in from Rob Lifson who appears to be concerned about the forum's concerns:

Hi Joel! This is the email (below) sent to Steiner (to more than one contact person). You are welcome to post. We specifically pointed out the concerns about the design of the stationary on the phone as well. We will check the letter for a watermark and also absolutely follow up with Steiner about Dave Medima's concerns as well. We appreciate everyone's input and will do our best to get to the bottom of this!

Sincerely,

Rob L

Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, N.J. 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com
　
----- Original Messge -----
From: "Robert Lifson" <info@robertedwardauctions.com>
To: <ereyes@steinersports.com>
Cc: <info@robertedwardauctions.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 12:23 PM
Subject: Steiner Rivera 1998 World Series Jersey Authentication Inquiry
　
To Efrain Reyes:

Re: Questions about the 1998 Rivera World Series Game Used Jersey that appears as Lot #1383 in the current Robert Edward Auctions auction. Here is the link:

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=19662

We spoke to Mr. Molesso today and he suggested that we communicate with you. On the GameUsedForm questions have been raised about the authenticity of both the jersey and the Steiner LOA that accompanies. Here is the link:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=42687

We have no idea if there is any merit to these concerns, but want to address them and make sure that there is indeed no problem with the jersey or the accompanying Steiner letter. Prior to seeing these concerns on the GameUsedForum we were contacted by a collector who correctly pointed out to us that the jersey is not the one that Rivera was wearing in his one home game appearance on the mound in the 1998 World Series. (Note: We have verified this with images and have posted an addendum.) Apparently this is not unusual and jerseys that are worn by players that do not actually play in the game are commonly referred to as Game Used. Please verify. That is our understanding. If this is a Rivera Game Used 1998 World Series jersey as identified by the Steiner LOA, then by definition it has to be the one he wore during Game 2 (the game in which he did not pitch).

Could you please look at this Steiner letter and the jersey and verify the authenticity of both? If these is a problem with the letter, obviously this would be a big deal. If there is no problem with the letter (as I suspect), but a mistake of any kind has been made by Steiner with reference to the identification of the jersey, this could easily be addressed and remedied. If there is no problem with either, that would be great. We just want to verify. Our goal is to protect the integrity of the auction and authentication process both for REA and Steiner.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

Sincerely,
　
Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, N.J. 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com
　
　

[solarlottry]

Re: Rea

Thank you for clearing the issue surrounding the Sanders "gamer" with MEARS LOA, which in this case is entirely worthless and misleading. I have been in contact with Roger and he still has his 1992 Sanders shirt that was worn in EVERY 1992 home game and is photo and video matched. I am unsure how MEARS was able to grade this shirt A7 which is the highest grade a post 1987 shirt can have (i think).

Shirts with flag tags like this one-DY (1991 D- for the year and Y for the month) can and have been used in later years. I have a number of 49er 1994 gamers that have year tags as early as CZ but had the 75th patch added and the shirt used in games played in 94. These shirts have team letters and good use so i know they are genuine.

What is troubling is that this shirt was given a LOA by a company that is considered one of the premier companies that evaluates and issues LOAs. If REA was able to determine that the shirt was not worn than MEARS should have been able to as well, considering that this is their profession. There is always the possibility that it could have been worn for part of a game etc but that is unlikely. Genuine Barry Sanders shirts are some of the hardest shirts to procure and it would seem that you get what you pay for, in that a real Sanders should be 5 figures in the least.

Another reason to always do your "game used homework" before buying anything and not using the presence of an LOA from ANYONE as a reason to buy anything.

Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com
Always buying 94 49ers gamers and paying up to 500$ "finders fee" depending on the shirt!

[GameBats]

Re: Rea

Steiner marks every game used jersey with proprietary DNA which is invisable to the naked eye. REA should send the jersey to Steiner to have the jersey inspected and the DNA verified. The letter alone should not be considered an acceptable means of authentication.

- John

[trsent]

Re: Rea

Steiner marks every game used jersey with proprietary DNA which is invisable to the naked eye. REA should send the jersey to Steiner to have the jersey inspected and the DNA verified. The letter alone should not be considered an acceptable means of authentication.

- John

I received this email from Robert Lifson tonight:

Hi Joel! With reference to GameBats' suggestion, this was our thought as well. The Rivera jersey was already sent to Steiner earlier today. They also allowed us to send the Jeter. It will be interesting to find out what the story is. For the record, the Rivera letter does not have a watermark. It is the only one we have that does not have a watermark. We were naturally very concerned about this fact when we checked this first thing this morning at the suggestion of bronx_burner. We immediately contacted Steiner Sports again both with this finding and the concerns expressed by Dave Mediema, whose knowledge we have great respect for. Steiner Sports was very clear in saying to us that it is absolutely possible the letter is 100% good without the water mark and that some Steiner letters do not have a watermark. The Jeter letter does have the watermark by the way (which is of note simply because the yellow rail trim at the top of the Jeter letter does not go all the way accross). Steiner Sports is looking at both of these jerseys as a courtesy to us and to be responsive to any concerns. We will report their feedback as soon as we hear from them hopefully next week.


Sincerely,


Rob L


Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions, LLC
P.O. Box 7256
Watchung, N.J. 07069
908-226-9900
908-226-9920 fax
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

[ereyes]

Re: Rea

Just want to clarify a couple of things about the Rivera Jersey.

1. When AJ Romeo stated that the letter look correct it was only off images sent by REA. Following up on the email posted here, AJ sent REA another email asking for them to send the Rivera jersey and letter to us to verify its authenticity.

2. The Rivera letter is 100% fake. The fonts are incorrect and looks like the hologram was taken off the Russell Athletic tag on jersey and placed on letter.

3. The Rivera jersey is 100% not a Rivera worn jersey. The Rivera on the tail should be in all caps, the name is a different font than the 1998, and it looks like the #2 is a different color then the # 4.

4. As it's true that the yellow line at the top of the letter should go from end to end, we at one point stopped ordering these and were printing them in house. This gives you the following (1) no yellow on the ends because of the margins on a regular pc printer and also no watermark.